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To: Colofornian
.and if we conclude that God only works thru that denomination in an exclusive salvific way, then I would say we've thereby substituted a church for Jesus Christ, Son of God, as being "The Way" (John 14:6)]

Actually Scripture tells us that the Church is the final authority of Christianity. (Matthew 18:17).

Similar to the above, this is an emphasis on an organization instead of organism, which it sounds like he recognized. The Body of Christ is the latter--not merely some "organization" based in either Rome or Salt Lake City.

The Church was never intended to be a loose conglomerate of believers but a structured organization. Scripture clearly established "offices" and a "hierarchy" among Christians.  The offices of "bishop, priest (presbyter) and deacon" are mentioned in Scripture (1 Timothy 3:1,8; Titus 1:7 ).  This is organization. Also, according to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23).  We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5).  There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many.  For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many. 

10 posted on 05/19/2008 4:23:59 PM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: NYer
Thank you for your response.

Scripture clearly established "offices" and a "hierarchy" among Christians. The offices of "bishop, priest (presbyter) and deacon" are mentioned in Scripture (1 Timothy 3:1,8; Titus 1:7). This is organization.

I would not confuse "organization" with "order." An "organization" can be dead (part of the "visible" church, perhaps?...the "tares" mentioned by Christ?). Whereas an "organism" is alive.

What you mention above is actually not so much a "what" ("offices") but a "who" (people!) Bishops, priests & deacons are foremost people, and were people, and will continue to be people, long after the titles vanish in the wind.

As for the hierarchy, yes order & structure are important, but you can see what happens when the dynamic exits order & structure to leave only an empty hierarchy (we call that "governmental bureaucracies!")

Also, according to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23). We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5). There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many. For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many.

Well, indeed. But it is, as you say, one "Body"--and every alive body I know is a living organism not a shell of an organization.

Actually Scripture tells us that the Church is the final authority of Christianity. (Matthew 18:17).

Well, actually last time I looked Jesus said "ALL" (not some) authority had been given to HIM! (Matt 28:18). And then He added He would be with His disciples even unto the end of the age! (Matt. 28:20). And the apostle Paul describes Him in Ephesians and to the Corinthians as the "Head" of the body. (You're not saying that someone guillotined Christ, are you?)

So the final authority is the earthly Presence of Jesus...His Presence is wrapped up in that of the Holy Spirit, who resides in the temple of...fanfare, please! PEOPLE! "The God-made temple" is not based @ the Vatican or in Salt Lake City, for those are but man- made structures.

As for the verse you cited, let me quote it: If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. (Matt. 18:17)

Maybe I missed it, but where do you get the Church as the final authority of Christianity out of those words?

I would simply re-iterate that authority rests in the Son of God and while His people derive authority from Him, there's a big difference between derivation and outright 100% delegation to an institution--even a divinely created institution.

11 posted on 05/19/2008 4:40:33 PM PDT by Colofornian
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