Posted on 05/16/2008 3:19:30 PM PDT by netmilsmom
Stemming from this comment
>>I think the RCC doctrines are a product of the enemy<<
Please tell us where we stand here. Examples welcome, but I'm not sure that actual names can be used when quoting another FReeper, so date and thread title may be better.
I want to communion at my Dad's funeral...God Understood even though I am divorced.
Makes more sense that way, though I think you were following my gist.
>>Certainly. I vehemently disagree with the RC church on things like veneration of the saints, but it teaches salvation through Christ.<<
IMO this post is exactly what I expected. (as with the many others who said basically the same thing, and the posts that seemed equally as taken aback that the question even came up)
No Catholic expects anyone who is not Catholic to agree with our teachings. None of the non-Catholics are Catholic afterall.
But at least, we are not a cult or non-Christian, in most people’s opinions.
Are you trying to make it personal or something? That is against the rules.
... for what they do not say. "Not of works" refers to grace being not of works. Grace Alone, not Faith Alone.
... for what they do not say. "Not of works" refers to grace being not of works. Grace Alone, not Faith Alone.
My mistake. Sorry.
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
You have just made my day!!!!
(”Oh Emo!”)
Well, it’s awfully damned nice of “most protestants” to freely acknowledge the presence of “many true believers in Christ” among Roman Catholics. I will reply in kind to this out-pouring of magnaminity by stating that most Catholics believe Protestants to be Christans, but of the benighted, misguided and heretical variety.
I’m sorry, but the proof is at the top of the page. It was what was said and no Obamaesgue denial will make it otherwise. Keep well in mind that you can’t separate Roman Catholics from their doctrines.
Why would you say that? If you review each of those things, it basically boils down to 3 components:
Active Trust exercised beyond yourself (faith)...
...in an ongoing real relationship (that's not pretense)...
...that is authentic/legit content-wise (body of faith mentioned in Jude 3).
So that's real trust, a real relationship, pointed in the right direction. Even a baby can do that!
Ask any mom who is breastfeeding. That baby comes to trust Mom to be fed. The baby may not trust anybody else, but that's what the "right direction" is all about.
There's no "pretend" relationship between a baby & a mother.
The baby is there to draw nourishment & outright life from her.
The dependency is total.
The baby doesn't earn his or her right to be fed.
The baby isn't evaluated on "worthiness"; she is loved.
So, going back to your statement, do you really think such a baby wouldn't know who his or her "Mommy" is?
I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." (John 10:1-5)
Relationship. Sheep can relate. A dog can relate. Babies relate. All intimately know the voice of their Master or parent.
The ones who don't relate, says Jesus, are thieves and robbers who try to establish their own ladder into heaven. Self-worthiness. Perfect obedience (Matt 5:48)--I'm not saying it's not a good standard, just perfect holiness is unattainable from our direction. A temple ritual checklist. A temple recommend worthiness checklist. Doing all you can do, enough so that you "hope" grace would eventually kick in (2 Nephi 25:23). As Spencer W. Kimball says, godhood is about "pulling yourselves up by the bootstraps."
That is 100% opposite to a gift of faith--to grace--to a relationship-based salvation...and puts it all (or most) on your shoulders.
...no mortal can tell who is a Christian and who is not.
Just the opposite. No mortal can tell if he's ever done enough to earn God's approval under a sheer merit-based system. Whereas you can be certain you are in a dependent relationship with God. And you can be certain if you have stopped struggling and are trusting. A kid who is in water over his head & doesn't know how to swim or swim well knows very well if he is trusting in his parent or is trying to keep afloat all by himself.
And you can be certain that eternal life is a present-tense gift.
"Whoever believes in the Son HAS eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24)
These two verses alone penetrate the guise of Mormonism. (Because LDS define "eternal life" as godhood)
I didn't say a person couldn't tell if they themselves were Christian, under your definition, I said a person couldn't tell if someone else were a Christian. God can read the heart, man not so well. :-)
Yes. No doubt.
100% conclusively tell? (Yes, man cannot do that) But we both know Jesus saying there are indicators ("Ye shall know them by their fruit") + it's LDS who say the temple is man-made, whereas Christians point to the God-made temple--the person who is in Christ.
It's no coincidence that Paul brings up the body as a temple of the Holy Ghost in both letters to the Corinthians, and precedes one of the references with these two verses:
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor. 2:15-16)
Now I'm not saying "the spiritual man" knows who will be in heaven and who won't. What I am saying is that the Holy Ghost inside that person does know, and sometimes He gives illumination & discernment to "the spiritual man" to let him know that certain others are on the wrong pathway--the "wide is the road leading to destruction" reference Jesus made...and "destruction" is not a degree of glory!
If what you claim could possibly true, how did these critters become 'gods' before they were judged???
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
This verse alone disqualifies these 'gods' from being human...
The footnotes are also crucial:
78: 2 Pet 1:4.
79: St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939.
80: St. Athanasius, De inc., 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
81: St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57: 1-4.
St. Athanasius is the author of the sentence most likely to give offence.
You mean the Catholic foot notes...I'm sure they are crucial...You have to have some serious footnotes to convince anyone other than a Catholic that these 'gods' are Christians...
Honestly, a Protestant who has a problem with our dogma and thinks that we are Christian, I have NO problem with.
Afterall, there are some on this board that think we are not even Christian.
LOL. It certainly thinks it does.
Thank God, ultimately, God's power to call whom He will is all that matters.
Whose hope shall be cut off, and whose trust shall be a spider's web." -- Job 8:13-14"So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish:
I know you're just funnin' with your flying disc pic, but how do you and your church explain those UFO's in Ezekiel???
Why would the catechism use those quotations from Aquinas if it didn't agree with Aquinas?
This is just more of Rome's parsing the truth with "here are the words, but they don't really mean what they say the mean." Kind of like when "venerate" and "co-redeem" do not mean "worship."
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