Posted on 05/16/2008 12:06:26 AM PDT by Gamecock
After modeling a seeker-sensitive approach to church growth for three decades, Willow Creek Community Church now plans to gear its weekend services toward mature believers seeking to grow in their faith.
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Since 1975, Willow Creek has avoided conventional church approaches, using its Sunday services to reach the unchurched through polished music, multimedia, and sermons referencing popular culture and other familiar themes.
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.....surveyed congregants at Willow Creek and six other churches, suggested that evangelistic impact was greater from those who self-reported as "close to Christ" or "Christ-centered" than from new church attendees. In addition, a quarter of the "close to Christ" and "Christcentered" crowd described themselves as spiritually "stalled" or "dissatisfied" with the role of the church in their spiritual growth. Even more alarming to Willow Creek: About a quarter of the "stalled" segment and 63 percent of the "dissatisfied" segment contemplated leaving the church.
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
Yes, I like that also, or no "worry/thought of tomorrow." This striving and worry is pretty much what goes on in our everyday minds. We're either re-living the past or pre-living the future. So little time we spend in the present moment, we lose what we are given, and our gratitude for God's grace right now. Don't you think?
"cease striving" as in put down your weapons
Umm, can't go there with you. Not in context, which is much much bigger: "we will not fear, though the earth should change…the mountains slip into the heart of the sea…waters roar and foam…" It starts cosmically then telescopes smaller and smaller, earth, nation, city, til.. "be still.."
As another put it, "we sit in the lap of an Immense Compassion." We fidget in this lap and our minds race with worry from work to politics to climate to cosmic cataclysm - distracted and forgetful of who we really are and who God is and where God is and what God is.
This is the point of Christian Contemplative Prayer. Not to be blank or forget or escape; but, to be attentive, aware and undistracted. To just be, and in our being know that it is of God. If we are this still, ceasing striving, then, perhaps, with God's grace, we know He is present, we experience His compassion, we are in communion with Him - as Jesus prayed in the garden we would be.
And, in this regard, contemplation is not different from other forms of prayer.
Thanks for your reply.
Mother Teresa was not a preacher, nor an evangelist. And the "Word" is much much more than mere "words".
I feel certain that Willow Creek Church is not lacking for words. In my opinion, neither are the poor and dying in the slums of Calcutta.
They knew the Word of Christ through her.
"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
Thanks very much for your reply, and it's interesting about your uncles. How did you go so far astray?
:)
By preaching? By hearing words only? I disagree.
Many examples, Luke Chapter 7 is a good start. Or Luke Chapter 11. Matthew 25:34-45 is also interesting. Or St. Thomas in the extreme.
Also: "The Word was God… the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." The words of all scripture as well as those cited above are incalculably useful, but not magic or divine, nor flesh and blood.
Don't mistake that I don't revere Jesus's words. They can point, they can spark, but they are not Jesus, the true Word of God. Without Him, there is no peace for us and all the words in the world cannot bring it.
I believe it is an error to not use scripture, wisely, and an error to believe that scripture alone is the only way to salvation or that scripture and the Gospel of Jesus are identities. Both scripture and experience teach us otherwise.
Nope....not a chance.
Acts 4:12, NIV: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men which we must be saved."
Acts 2:21, NIV: "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Romans 10:9, NIV: "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
Galatians 1:8-12: "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached was not something that man made up, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."
Hey, D-fender,
Again, knowing that I am a Protestant, we do not use experience as a source for doctrine (experience is different among different folks and does not remain a constant).
For Protestants the doctrine of salvation is determined completely, and only, by Scripture.
I do not understand your reference to Luke 7. The centurion had great faith in Jesus Christ. The centurion believed that Jesus was God and could heal (even without being at his house). It was all faith in Jesus Christ.
I am sorry...I also did not understand your reference to Luke 11 (I can be a bit obtuse). :)
You are most welcome, Lilllabett.
Very funny.
My Dad accepted Christ, as Savior, when he joined a carpool to work with some guys who were all from the same Baptist Church. They shared the Gospel of Jesus Christ with him and he eventually believed. (Interestingly enough, he was, at the same time, being heavily pursued by some Mormons).
My Dad's family (the Catholic side) told him that they didn't mind when he was on his way to hell but that they really had a problem with him becoming a "born again" Baptist. They didn't have much to do with us after that.
My Dad's conversion was radical and changed his entire life. He became a different person. He was a heavy drinker and stopped drinking immediately. His salvation also saved my parents marriage (At the time, I was 8).
I went from seeing him come home drunk from the bar, late at night, to seeing him doing his devotions and praying in the living room early every morning. (Sometimes with tears running down his face.)
The way that God saved my Dad made me realize how real and powerful the life-changing power of faith in Jesus Christ is! I am grateful to God.
(My Dad studied Greek and became a very good teacher and is still teaching, today.)
My entire family started to attend the Baptist church and we, eventually, all accepted Christ.
Now each of us have our own family, and thankfully, they also have accepted Christ. So much to be thankful for!
That is how I went "so far astray".
With real hardship looming on the horizon, there may be cause for optimism on the spiritual front. Consider: in a climate wherein the very real possibility of economic disaster comes to dominate a people's thought, the light and fluffy amusement motif of Willow Creek and others will be pushed aside by real believers who will instead turn inward and do some real honest-to-goodness soul searching, as the dependence -- not on man, his ingenuity, or his "buying and selling" in the stock market -- on God for our daily bread becomes more and more "real" to us.
Let us pray that the Santa Claus-like Baal will be overthrown and replaced by the great and terrible God Who worked wonders before Pharaoh, Who traveled in a pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, whose precepts through Moses told us of Himself and His attributes, and whose unspeakable mercy is penned by real men in simple words on ink and paper - in short, the God who can save. This is the God we know and the God I want others to know, the God who loves and saves us from our own wretchedness.
Amen
I have a bone to pick with usage of the phrase "accept Christ". When you "accept" someone, the connotation is one of putting up with or tolerating. Jesus Christ is begotten of the Father before all worlds. He is Almighty God.
That he accepts us in our wretchedness and misery - that, my FRiend, is truly a marvel.
And thank you, Elizabeth. It’s a joy to know you and share a tiny bit of cyber world with you.
Doctrine is different, but experience, personal experience? This is why I'm not Protestant ( I went through several brands of it).
Don't Protestants talk of a "personal relationship with Jesus"? Isn't this what we all wish? To know good through personal experience?
Else what is our religion? We might as well be reading history books. And whose history to choose? Hindu? Buddha? Mohammed? Why not, if our basis is not grounded in our personal experience of what is True? If God is Truth, how can we be afraid of seeking Truth? "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone?"
I think you understand this. My point is the Reformation threw out the baby with the bathwater. We all strive to be mystics - defined as knowing God by direct personal experience.
The Catholic Church is big, big enough to include the Contemplatives, those who cannot accept what another says God is, those who must know, directly.
There are Protestants like this, they are human too. :) But Protestants reject them, or have no expertise or experience in how to direct them. They are made to feel different, weird, unacceptable, as I did.
Granted, this is a small group, it has always been. But it is an important group, that seeks to know God in their gut. Please do not reject their method of seeking Truth. We just don't believe what you say because you say we should. Or because we should to hedge our bets on the afterlife. Should we pick a truth because it is true or because it is for our, however improbable, gain?
Again, I don't think you do this, it is Protestant doctrine that flattens the Word into words - to be accepted "on faith."
The centurion believed that Jesus was God and could heal.
No, he believed He could heal and therefore... Had he just preached, the centurion would have not have appealed to Him, or had faith in Him. This was my point. Jesus heals. He still does. Do you not believe this? Or do you not think this is a road to faith?
Luke 11 is about faith coming through prayer. This is another path to faith - the practice of prayer. Praxis is the generic term and this can lead us to faith. As opposed to intellectual assent involved with preaching and scripture, this is learning by doing and observing the results. As much as the Gospel is about believing it is about doing. Try loving your enemies. Really try it. Try repentance, and examine your conscience. Really try. Try humility; try dying to self. Not assent to concepts or acclamations; follow Jesus. Try loving God with ALL your mind, strength, heart, and with all your soul. Try loving your brother as your self.
Try this and see what you see.
In brief this practice is prayer and contemplation, purification and repentance, love. In my own experience, not to be expanded to all, it is true faith. Faith in looking for God and trusting that He will be there, if He exists. No preconceptions or expectations. Doing what Jesus said and observing reality.
There are some, again it may be few, for whom, this brings a solid faith. For some, it is the only way. I'm speaking of myself here, for me preaching is hearing someone else's description of God. And, like love, God can only be truly known by experience, direct personal experience of Truth.
This is what each of longs for deep in our being. To know God.
Each in our own way.
Thank you for your patience and reply.
That is how I went "so far astray"... They didn't have much to do with us after that.
It was their loss.
My Dad's conversion was radical and changed his entire life.
Jesus heals us. And from this can come faith.
That's what I've been tellin' ya.
{^_^}
I think you’re painting a false dichotomy. It is through careful study and application of Scripture that we know to pray, Jesus heals and how to test our experiences against the light of God’s word.
Scripture divorced from experience brings dry legalism.
Experience divorced from Scripture brings Brian Mclaren.
No, we need Biblical Christ-centered preaching and Holy Spirit regeneration.
How do you tell the difference between a spirit filled church and a non spirit filled church?
Those words belong in a book. Powerful.
If the trees are bending, the Wind is blowing.
If the trees are bent down to the ground, the Wind is blowing hard.
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