Why so many LDS threads?

I am posting this on behalf of many LDS freepers. They will post their own 'signature' to this in the comments below. --- Some of you have noticed lately a lot of LDS (ie: Mormon) threads here on FR. I'm going to tell you why.

For many years there have been several active LDS freepers here. We post to all the forums on relevant issues, and were happy to have a site where conservative values were so openly welcomed.

Those conservative values include faith in God, and freedom of religion. We fully respect the rights of all posters to express their opinions and views on religious matters, even when people choose to use those rights to express criticism of our own faith. We also support the ideas embodied in FR rules against religion bashing. There is no need for hostility and there should be no room for bigotry on FR. Every religion has it's miracles and mysteries. Every faith has things in it that are not or can not be proven, and things that run contrary to what secular science would have us believe. Someone mature and confident in their own faith generally doesn't feel the need to belittle the faith of others.

We have, to the best of our ability, conducted ourselves with civility and dignity. We do not feel that that respect has been returned by some posters (putting it mildly).

When Mormon missionaries were murdered, the moderators were kept busy pulling jubilant posts off the thread. When Elizabeth Smart was abducted from her home, we contended for months with posters who appeared to be motivated by religious bigotry doing all they could to smear the family and accuse the father. Several posters openly admitted their religious motivation in opposing Mitt Romney and confessed that no matter how conservative any Mormon was, they would never vote for one for President of the USA. When the Pope died, I don't think any Mormon poster posted anything unkind, yet the thread about the passing of our President recently needed many comments removed.

Nearly every thread having any connection with Mormons, or Utah winds up being hijacked by anti-Mormon activists who copy and paste the same false accusations over and over even when it has been clearly and factually pointed out to them on multiple occasions that they are bearing false witness against our faith. Everything possible is done by these activists to make FR a hostile place for Mormons, and for at least some of them, bashing Mormonism is all they do here. Their most recent project is trying to blur the fact that the polygamous FLDS is a separate and distinct religion from ours, just as Lutherans are a separate and distinct religion from Catholicism.

In our opinion, such poster do a great disservice to FR and to their fellow freepers by spreading disinformation and promoting hostility towards a people known for walking the walk of conservative values.

Why the moderators here don't see the behavior of these anti-Mormon activists as religion bashing is a mystery to us, but it is the moderators call to make and we respect their right to do so. That doesn't mean we have to be passive however. We have all spent many hours refuting the accusations leveled at our faith, but these wind up buried deep in a flood of comments, effectively shouting us down.

Recently some of us have decided to take a more proactive approach. Rather than try to wrestle the pig into taking a bath, we are just going to hose it down. We will actively define our faith here rather than just respond to accusations.

So expect to see lots of Mormon threads, now and for as long as we see fit to keep posting them (although probably not as many as there are Catholic threads). They will be about our basic doctrines and responses to common accusations. If you want to know what our faith is about, read the articles we post. We will post them as open threads and I encourage you to compare the difference in tone and spirit between what we post and what our critics say.

Some may claim that a presidential candidate’s religion has no significance at all, but I have little doubt that if we currently had a muslim candidate, lots of people, including mormons, would be thinking that it was damned relevant.

Personally, I think you have it wrong. I do not think that news articles about mormons in the news is mormon bashing at all. Nor do I think that pointing out truths about mormon beliefs is mormon bashing. Romney being mormon is (or was) a news issue, just as catholicism was when Kennedy ran, so those articles were relevant at that time. True, some people may vote against a person because of their beliefs... and some will vote FOR him for the same reason. Mormonism came up again with other cases, such as the polygamy sects, which were newsworthy subjects.

What has been MY experience and observation is that in instances where something like polygamy, or child molestation charges comes up involving LDS or FLDS, we then see LDS members defending the acts. If anyone makes mormons look bad it is the mormons who, instead of condemning those acts... make excuses for them. It is those I see defending the acts of the FLDS who have done more to turn my opinion against mormons than any of the news articles or other opinions. Your whining in this particular thread about how LDS is being persecuted does nothing to change my opinion of mormons.. at least not in any way favorable to mormons.

Not as the Son of God, the creator of the universe, the Savior of mankind. Mormons do.

Come on, Seven. (How about unpacking "the rest of the story?" eh?)

Jesus as the Son of God...

The Mormon "Christ" is a pre-existent spirit, they say, like you or me...whose difference is...

(a) mere spiritual birth order--having been first;

(b) was twice made a son of God via Mary; and

(c) died for Adam's sin so folks could be resurrected unto immortality (his role as "Savior" for the Mormon is pure universalism).

So it's actually closer to say that LDS believe that Christ is a son of God than "the" Son of God; due to the pre-existence in MormonLand, you are a son of God who has become incarnated from where God is, Sevenbak is a son of God who has become incarnated from where God is, Grig is a son of God who has become incarnated from where God is...kind of dilutes the whole "incarnation" thing, ya know!

This Messiah was born in Bethlehem as the Bible foretold and affirmed post-birth--not like the Mormon Jesus of Mormon Scriptures born in Jerusalem.

Other than that, he was not the Son of God from eternity past. He worked his way up to godhood status. He's not an exalted God-become-man, but an exalted man-become-God. He was an elder spirit bro of Lucipher. Had you or your brother been "first" in that pre-existent spirit world birth order, he could have been Christ!!!

This Jesus is foreign to the Bible. The Messiah of the Bible shared the glory with the Father in the beginning (John 17); Jesus existed from eternity in a special relationship with the Father (Micah 5:2).

I openly dare LDS to forthrightly exegete Doctrine & Covenants 39:1, which says: Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ.... What does "from all eternity to all eternity" mean?

This Jesus is THE Son of God, not just a son of God. And THE Son of God did not consider equality with His Father something he couldn't let go of while becoming a man (see Philippians 2). Phil. 2 makes it clear He was already divine, not just a "wannabe" God like Dear Ole Dad.

the creator of the universe

I'm sorry, but you forgot a little asterisk there: The Jesus of Mormonism didn't create ALL things as the true historical Jesus did (Heb 1; John 1; Col. 1:16-17...see even D&C 93:9-10), who created the angels--even Lucipher. (The Jesus of Mormonism is a spirit brother of Lucifer)

[Also, please note that Mormons deceptively use the word "creator" when applied to Jesus/God...by "creator" they mean "organizer"...they believe matter & elements are eternal...that despite what Hebrews 11:3 says, LDS leaders say God didn't create anything from nothing...they don't believe in the doctrine of ex nihilo creation]

The Savior of mankind...

Grig recently posted a multiple-post thread by LDS "apostle" James Talmage, showing how much he thinks of him. What did Talmage say about Jesus as the "savior of mankind?"

Even the unbeliever, the heathen, and the child who dies before reaching the years of discretion, are all redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice from the individual consequences of the fall. (Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 85)

Ah. Sevenbak thinks he can just namedrop the Mormon Jesus as "Savior of mankind" to show how much Mormonism is supposedly in alignment with historic Christian thought. While Christ indeed saves/redeems unbelievers, heathen, etc., those who are born again/born from above don't remain heathen or unbelievers [I mean, come on! What's a relationship with someone who doesn't trust in you or see you as God?] as they exit this world. Talmage says they do or at least they can.

And why is that? Because LDS teach a form of universalism where all are "saved" except apostates. And what do they mean by "saved?" (They mean saved unto resurrection, a transfer from mortality to immortality).

Jesus, in John 5:29, talks about a "resurrection of damnation." (Last time I looked at the Greek word for "damnation"--which means destroyed/judgment/destruction--"damnation" is NOT "salvation!"

To hear Talmage & other Mormons tell it, since mankind was already "saved" by Jesus no matter what faith was or wasn't exercised, when the Phillippian jailer asked them what he must do to be saved (Acts 16:30), I guess they should have just told him straight-up Mormon doctrine in Acts 16:31: "Hey, stupid. All unbelievers and heathen are saved. Y'all get resurrected. We were going to say, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,' but then we had a vision of the 'restored gospel.'"

The true picture of the Mormon Jesus is that he is as much of a "saved being" as any man or woman he saves! The Mormon Jesus is but a mere creature like dear ole Dad:

"Christ is a saved being” (McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth ‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a saved being, one who had placed all things beneath his feet. ‘I am Alpha and Omega,’ he said, ‘Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world. I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment.’ (D&C 19:1-2.)” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234)

(Please also see McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said Jesus "Needs salvation"...”Came to earth to work out His own salvation”)

And the Mormon Christ is one savior among many:

"...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).

Compare that to the Bible, where "saviors of the world" are in no way multiple. Jesus is it (1 John 4:14; John 4:42).

OFFICIALLY they are taught NEVER to criticize leadership; even if it is WRONG!

Yeah, how about these "doosies" from LDS leaders through the years:

Ah, the "grand heritage" of the so-called "living prophets":

Joseph Smith on being 'god to you': God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it. (History of the Church, pp. 319-320)

Brigham Young on 'Dictator' (his word) Joseph Smith:: When brother Joseph Smith lived, he was our Prophet, our Seer, and Revelator; he was our dictator in the things of God, and it was for us to listen to him, and do just as he told us.

Brigham Young on obeying 'right or wrong':: "...learn to do as you are told, both old and young; learn to do as you are told for the future...But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 32)

The Improvement Era was the pre-Ensign magazine. (Ensign replaced two LDS publications in 1970, The Improvement Era being one of them). LDS hold Ensign magazine, put out by the church, in high esteem. While freedom and liberty was breaking out all over Europe in June, 1945 as the allies won the war in the European theater, what was happening back home that same time in the Mormon church?

Well, let's take a look at what "ward teachers" were being told in the "Ward Teachers' Message for June, 1945: 'Sustaining the General Authorities of the Church'". When Sentinel said he has receiving FReepmail of a certain nature, it doesn't surprise me that it resembles the following excerpt from the "Ward Teachers' Message" referenced above:

Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes, whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the 'prophets, seers, and revelators' of the Church is cultivating the spirit of apostasy. One cannot speak evil of the Lord's anointed and retain the Holy Spirit in his heart.

Continuing: It should be remembered that Lucifer has a very cunning way of convincing unsuspecting souls that the General Authorities of the Church are as likely to be wrong as they are to be right. This sort of game is Satan's favorite pastime, and he has practiced in on believing souls since Adam. He wins a great victory when he can et members of the Church to speak against their leaders and to 'do their own thinking.'...When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way... (The Improvement Era, June, 1945, p. 141, conducted under the supervision of the presiding bishopric, edited by Lee A. Palmer)

[I guess this last edict from on high explains why challengers are earmarked for such "audacity"...that we would actually have the "audacity" to think for ourselves or to encourage Mormons to do the same! That we would actually have the "audacity" to contravert the elite General Authorities, who supposedly when they speak, well, there goes "the end of controversy." As our boys in Europe were fighting for a FreeRepublic, the old men in Utah were wrestling for a stifled one...some things just don't change despite the flip in generations!]

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