Posted on 04/30/2008 7:47:49 AM PDT by Pyro7480
Some Protestants accuse the Catholic Church of having dropped one of the 10 Commandments. "You're idolators! You worship statues! And because you do, your Church dropped the commandment against graven images!"
The truth, of course, is that the Catholic Church did not and could not change the Ten Commandments. Latin Catholics and Protestants simply list them differently. It is incredible that such a pernicious lie could be so easily spread and believed, especially since the truth could easily be determined by just looking into the matter. But the rumor lives.
Now, below are the ways in which Protestants and Roman Catholics enumerate the Commandments:
[See link above or below]
So what the heck? What did happen to the commandment about graven images in the Catholic listing? Did the Church just "drop" a commandment?
Um, no. The Old Testament was around long before the time of the Apostles, and the Decalogue, which is found in three different places in the Bible (Exodus 20 and Exodous 34 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21), has not been changed by the Catholic Church. Chapter and verse divisions are a medieval invention, however, and numbering systems of the Ten Words (Commandments), the manner in which they are grouped, and the "short-hand" used for them, vary among various religious groups. Exodus 20 is the version most often referred to when one speaks of the Ten Commandments, so it will be our reference point here....
Those in Heaven today, alive in Christ, are there because they have found favor in the eyes of God. They died in His Grace and live forever in Glory. Asking you to pray for me (please do) has merit, no? How much more those Saints in Heaven?
Someone very dearly beloved to me is living with Cancer.
I know the burden of worry and fear this puts on your heart.
I will pray the Lord uphold the both of you through this.
Yes.
Not at all. I make no assumptions about the rules of heaven, unlike those that pray to saints in heaven.
I don't know if they are still concerned with earthly events, I don't know if they can hear prayers directed to them, and I don't know if they can listen to more than one person at a time.
Someone who prays to saints in heaven must make assumptions about all three of the above.
Wow. Do you really believe that saints in heaven have super powers?
What I see is 2 prominent saints in heaven come to Earth at a singularly important moment in history to converse face to face with God as man. To extrapolate that all saints in heaven can communicate via prayer with millions of people at any one instant is so far beyond reason as to be ridiculous. But that's just me...
Uh, I don’t really have an issue with that because I do believe in the communion of the Saints. My problem is that I know a lot of living Saints on earth that I can ask to pray so why I’d ask the ones in Heaven to do it for me doesn’t make a whole lot of sense (to me).
Besides, you don’t know who is in Heaven anymore than I do. I’m sure we can make some pretty good educated guesses about it, but I have a hunch that there might be a few “saints” you Catholics pray to that might not even be there.
If I accept that it's possible for Mary to hear prayers, and if I accept that she can filter out millions of prayers to hear a single individual, that means that you're better off playing the lottery than praying to Mary.
You seem to be the one putting limitations on what is possible in heaven.
I asked a question and didn't suggest a position at all.
I guess we’ll just have to disagree here (and strongly). Praying TO someone is indicative of believing THAT individual has the power to effect my prayer and I simply do not believe that anyone in Heaven has that power other than the Lord himself, whether that be the Father, Son or Holy Spirit.
And although you say I CAN pray to St. Paul, I’ve never heard a Catholic yet say they did and I’ve spent most of my life with Catholics.
I have no desire to bash Catholics or the Catholic Church but the prayer TO saints in Heaven is wrong. That’d be like me asking my pastor to heal me or help my husband find a job; all I can do is ask him to intercede on my behalf with the Lord, who is the one to answer, not any mere man.
Oh, and incidentally, do you think it’s okay to lay flowers before statues? Sorry, but I don’t. It’s no different than the Buddhists putting bowls of fruit in front of their statues. As my friend said to me once (who has a lot of Buddhist friends), “I never saw the statue eat the food yet.”
I do not have a problem with the Hail Mary, for exactly the reasons you state, and I know that many Catholics understand this, but surely you must know that there are many, many Catholics who will tell you they are praying TO the Saint(s). I know because all of my in-laws have done, and do this.
As for it getting old, I agree with you. It does get old when you keep trying to explain to people such as yourself that many Catholics DO pray “To” (not in the sense as of the Hail Mary) and why you won’t admit this is beyond me. Do you think we all just make up this stuff? Really. I’ve had many conversations with my in-laws on this.
Once upon a time ago my mother-in-law said she was going to pray “to” (yes, she said “to”) St. Anthony (we had lost our camera and she said St. Anthony or St. Somebody would get it back for us)and I asked her how on earth St. Anthony could possibly hear all the prayers of all the millions of Catholics in Brazil, Mexico, South America, Italy, the U.S. and so on that would potentially be praying “to” him at the same time since St. A is not God and would not be able to have the ability to hear all the prayers at once and all she said is, “oh you’re too practical.” Yeah, I’m practical all right and God gave me a mind and I actually use it. I’m not saying I know everything but that makes no sense to me scripturally whatsoever and, frankly, the Lord himself taught us how to pray and he said, “Our Father....” He DID NOT SAY to ask St. Anthony or St. Anybody to pray for us.
I want to add a PS to my last post. I know you are a good person and it’s great that you know what you mean when you pray for the intercession of the saints, but I assure you that many people do not do it the way you are doing it and I should know since they are my family.
I think that you are taking her word and not her intention. If that was her intention then she was not taught properly. The power in a prayer “to” St. Anthony is in his intercession. To ask Our Lord. This is the prayer “to” St. Anthony.
Unfailing Prayer to (note the word “to”, as in I am speaking “to”) Saint Anthony
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints.
O Holy St. Anthony, gentlest of Saints, your love for God
and Charity for His creatures made you worthy, when on
earth, to possess miraculous powers. Miracles waited on
your word, which you were ever ready to speak for those in
trouble or anxiety. Encouraged by this thought, I implore
of you to obtain for me (request). The answer to my prayer
may require a miracle. Even so, you are the saint of
Miracles.
O gentle and loving St. Anthony, whose heart was ever full
of human sympathy, whisper my petition into the ears of the
Sweet Infant Jesus, who loved to be folded in your arms, and the gratitude of my heart will ever be yours.
Amen.
I somehow think you are reading into her intentions. That’s a mistake. As for your question of “how can he hear”, he does not have earthly ears. He has heavenly ears and in heavenly time. All eternity is available.
>>....” He DID NOT SAY to ask St. Anthony or St. Anybody to pray for us.<<
and BTW, they why do any of us bother with prayer requests?
Well, you’re right and I had thought to mention it in that post; many Catholics really may think that we “pray to” saints, or at least in a sense they do. I don’t believe that you are engaging in the game of theological “gotcha”. So, I’ll just tell you these folks are misinformed, but I don’t necessarily believe they are technically participating in “idolatry”.
My own mother used to make me wince when she did the old “St. Anthony, St. Anthony, please come around, something has lost and cannot be found.” Even as a teenager, I would chide her for engaging in superstitious activity. She would then put her hand down on the checkbook, or set of keys that she had lost and pronounce with a smile and a wink at me “Thank you, Tony”. I swear that it worked.
I can only say that for my part, I have tried to educate individuals myself. Correcting it if I hear people getting it wrong and making sure that children that I teach in my catechism class understand the teaching. No one that I have ever spoken with right down to kindergarten believes that they are praying to a statue or to a stained glass window, as some strident and stupid as brick ninnies have implied.
Certainly, I would guess that almost all of the Catholics that I have discussed this with really do not consider themselves partaking in a kind of idol worship, to be honest, I really don’t think that they are. They do not place the saints before God and Jesus. The saints should be a channel by which we see God reflected in the lives of other humans.
There is a lot of what I think is basically Catholic tradition and Catholic culture involved in joining our prayers to the saints. Many converts that I know are not necessarily swept up in the practice, maybe it’s the manner in which we are raised?
As for me, it’s a part of our ancesteral tradition that I enjoy sharing with my family and my children. I have certain “patrons” with whom I have had an affinity with since I was a little boy, including St. Joseph, St. Patrick by name. St. Luke as he is the patron of artists. Therese of Lisieux and the Blessed Mother, basically because they have been very favorable intercessors. I also love the apostles, especially Peter, Andrew and Thomas, becaus ethey were so incredibly flawed and Jesus loved them despite this. I have a particular affinity for St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, as she is a teacher like myself and closely linked geographically.
Yeah, I’m not certain why folks do not link to the Old Testament? Again, I think tradition. Originally, and before the whole canonization process was developed the saints were simply considered to be those who had been martyred for the faith. There was no big tribunal and devil’s advocate, etc. If you took one for the team, you got into the pantheon, so to speak. It took a couple centuries to open up the field, hence I think the saints prior to Jesus’s birth kind of get short shrift, except maybe St. Ann and St. Joachim.
To all of this, I might add, that I also like to teach my children by the example of other non-Catholic Christians that I think are inspirational in today’s context; CS Lewis, Martin Luther King, Bethany Hamilton, David Robinson, Tony Dungy and Kurt Warner.
These are inspirational people who proclaim Jesus’s message and even help me to get a little closer to Jesus by way of their attitudes, actions, courage and love of God. Not necessarily in the big book of Roman Catholic Saints, but really, who’s in it for that?
What can I say? I’m a Caatholic. The Communion of Saints; it’s our thing. I like it and I think it’s cool to have friends in Heaven. Non-Catholic Christians should, too.
I would quibble with that. The Augustinian-Catholic-Lutheran reading follows the grammar of the Hebrew. The Protestant divisions break the text up ungrammatically.
See:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/NUMBERNG.htm
THE DIVISION OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
James Akin
“IHS (Iesus Hominum Salvator)”
I learned in school that the origin of “IHS” was not “Iesus Hominum Salvator” - rather, it was an abbreviation of the name “Jesus”, being the transliteration of the first 3 letters of His name when written in Greek.
What an excellent reply (and post). Sure wish I knew you. You are a true blessing and those kids have gotten a real gem in having you as their religious instructor.
When I first became a Christian I was horrified at all the things I was “taught” that the Catholics do. While there are still some things that are so anathema to me personally, I think you said it all about the way we are brought up. And I do agree with you wholeheartedly that the people who would pray to the saints absolutely would not put them on the level of our Lord.
What comes to mind is not to be a stumbling block to our brother and the verse about whatever is sin to us in our mind IS sin.
What I do know is, as I’ve said before, the more I know, the less I know. I have great respect for the Catholic Church, the Pope and many, many truly Christian Catholics. We ALL (every denomination) have a mission field within our own churches. Only God knows who truly has received the circumcision of the heart.
Peace to you my brother.
If anyone is in doubt, they be safe with Jesus’ example.
As for why bothering with prayer requests, a lot of times, I don’t ask anyone to pray for me and I simply go directly to the Lord (in fact, I do this more than anything). I know He’ll follow through.
And that’s fine that you don’t ask another to pray for you. Many do and you should not have a problem with the way another person has his/her relationship with Our Lord. It borders on self-righteous.
Something I’m sure you are not.
So if you MIL wants to pray with St. Anthony, why do you care? She sounds like a Holy woman to me. While you are questioning her prayers, are you questioning her motives? You don’t see like you are, so let her have her ways. I’m sure she is praying for you too!
Because (and I repeat), she says she is praying TO! him, not with him and asking him to help.
I’m not questioning her motives at all. I just had another Freeper on here clarify that you are not to be praying TO the saints, so why you can’t admit it makes me think you don’t really get it.
You are very presumptuous of what you think about my mother-in-law and me.
Why do you care if she has a good relationship with Our Lord?
You are questioning her motives, but won’t admit it. You say that her motive is to pray “to” a saint. Her motive is to pray for results. I’m sure she is not a dumb woman, so whether she believes Our Lord gives the saint the power to perform miracles for her or she believes that what you say is “Praying to” is actually in her mind “praying for intercession” she knows the power comes from Our Lord. Maybe you are just being literal and she is not.
You can’t possibly be saying that the your MIL believes that St. Anthony, without God’s intercession, makes a miracle. No way. If she has told you that St. Anthony holds the power and not God, then she needs to speak with a priest.
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