Who is Mary of Nazareth?

Coming Home Network ^ | Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.

[Radix]

"Why baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?"

Why indeed?

The Apostles certainly did not repeat words when they baptized. They actually used the name.

[dangus]

You’ve worked yourself into a contradiction. Was Abraham a saint:

Remember what the prophet wrote?: “Not one is righteous” He was writing about the ancient Jews, a category which didn’t include Mary, but definitely includes Abraham.

But you are right in that Romans 4 refers to Abraham as having been saved. But this was written after Christ descended into Hell and rose again. Abraham was in Sheol/Hades until 30 AD. (The mildest region of which was even named after him.) So Abraham had faith in Christ in 30 AD, while Mary had faith in Christ more than 30 years earlier. You weren’t trying not to count her as a saint until she died, were you? Even we Catholics refer to her as having been a saint during her lifetime.

(THe practice of formally naming certain saints after they die in no ways denies the sainthood of living persons, only that we cannot know whether any given person is a saint or not. The Anglican churches’ practice of naming a person a saint while they are still alive has created grave embarrassments, such as — I kid you not — Saint Brittney Spears, named such because she once was seen as a firm advocate of abstinence!)

>>52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. <<

I think you’re mixing up senses of the word “saint.” The bible calls every Jew in entire encampments, “saints.” And while in the post-Resurrection context, the word refers to faithful Christians, I think in this context, it refers merely to Jews who died with honor. If you press that the word means those who were saved, you’re quickly going to run afoul of Augustine’s concept of original sin, let alone the more protestant concept of absolute depravity.

However, from a Protestant, proof-texting scripture-interpreting methodology, one could also assert that the saints who were raised on that day were those who had heard Jesus preached, and believed he was the Messiah, but had happened to die before Jesus was killed. The raising of Lazarus happened only days before the passion of Christ, and, although he had raised at least one other person, it was quite shocking to even his followers. Surely, others who had known Jesus had died. That’s not my method of reading scriptures, but, since it seems to be that of most FReepers, I’d just like to point out that’s a perfectly valid resolution of any apparent conflict.

[mountn man]

If you'll reread my post, you'll notice that Scripture tells us that Abraham had faith from the point he heard, which was while Sarah was still barren and he was 99 years old, shooting blanks.

Romans 4:

19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered the [utter] impotence of his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or [when he considered] the barrenness of Sarah's [deadened] womb.

20 No unbelief or distrust made him waver (doubtingly question) concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong and was empowered by faith as he gave praise and glory to God,

21 Fully satisfied and assured that God was able and mighty to keep His word and to do what He had promised.

22That is why his faith was credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God).

Then if we look earlier into chapter 4:

9 Is this blessing then meant only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? say that faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.

10 then was it credited [to him]? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.

11 He received the mark of circumcision as a token or an evidence [and] of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised--[faith] so that he was to be made the father of all who [truly] believe, though without circumcision, and who thus have righteousness (right standing with God) imputed to them and credited to their account,

Another verse in chapter 4 talks about David instead of Abraham and righteousness:

hus David congratulates the man and pronounces a blessing on him to whom God credits righteousness apart from the works he does: 7 Blessed and happy and to be envied are those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered up and completely buried. 8 Blessed and happy and to be envied is the person of whose sin the Lord will take no account nor reckon it against him.

David was after Abraham but before Christ himself was born. And yet he still knew of men being counted as righteous.

What makes you say that Mary wasn't righteous? When Paul said no one was righteous it said ALL have sinned, and All have fallen short of the glory of God.

Paul in Romans 5: 12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Because of one man death/sin passed to ALL men. Thats where Mary fits in.

Unless of course Paul and Holy Scripture lies.?

However, from a Protestant, proof-texting scripture-interpreting methodology,

My if that doesn't come across as pompus and condescending. But, if we were to apply equally (something we conservatives accuse (rightfully) of liberals not doing) then wouldn't Catholics be just as guilty of doing, proof reading scripture to make or validate their points? And which you yourself have done in this discussion?

Besides 2 Timothy 2:

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Or 1 Peter 3:

15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

The way I see it, the Bible TELLS us to study, proof reading is part of that. Study, so that we may rightly divide the word of truth. So that we can give an account to everyone.

Discussions like this don't have to be name calling brawls, or condescention or ineuendo. They can be passionate, and people don't HAVE to agree on every point.

In fact I believe discussions like this are very good. It has caused both of us to study the word to either make our cases, or disprove the others.

[Zuriel]

I only have minute, will have more when I can actually stay home for a few hours.

Are you and your word two separate and distinct beings?

[narses]

O blessed Virgin, Mother of God,
look down in mercy from Heaven,
where thou art enthroned as Queen,
upon me, a miserable sinner,
thine unworthy servant.
Although I know full well my own unworthiness,
yet in order to atone for the offenses that are done to thee
by impious and blasphemous tongues,
from the depths of my heart
I praise and extol thee as the purest,
the fairest, the holiest creature of all God’s handiwork.
I bless thy holy Name,
I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God,
ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin,
Co-Redemptrix of the human race.
I bless the Eternal Father who chose thee
in an especial way for His daughter;
I bless the Word Incarnate who took upon Himself our nature in thy bosom
and so made thee His Mother;
I bless the Holy Spirit who took thee as His bride.
All honor, praise and thanksgiving to the ever-blessed Trinity
who predestined thee and loved thee so exceedingly from all eternity
as to exalt thee above all creatures to the most sublime heights.
O Virgin, holy and merciful,
obtain for all who offend thee the grace of repentance,
and graciously accept this poor act of homage from me thy servant,
obtaining likewise for me from thy Divine Son
the pardon and remission of all my sins.

Amen.