Who is Mary of Nazareth?

Coming Home Network ^ | Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.

[Philo-Junius]

Dying is a separation of the spirit from the body. Insofar as Christ’s divine nature was temporarily separated from his body, Christ’s divine nature did indeed die.

But even normal sinful men who die do not destroy their souls by dying.

Nothing of Christ was destroyed by death, except, temporarily, the union of his body and spirit; the first fruits of the resurrection all the dead will experience at the Final Judgment.

[dangus]

>> Your problem, not mine.<<

I do not use the word “mystified” as an eight-year-old would. Being mystified isn’t a problem; it doesn’t mean to be left puzzled over apparent contradictions. It means to be transformed into a state of awe and wonder.

>> I absolutely affirm he has risen from the dead. <<

And yet you stated, in devestating contradiction to this, the assertion that what Mary was the mother of is dead.

>> So I ask you, who gave him all power? Certainly not Mary. I referred to John 3:34. Here’s the next verse: “The Father loveth the Son, and hath GIVEN ALL things into his Hand Who raised the Christ from the dead? Certainly not Mary. <<

No one debates this.

>> The Spirit of God left the Christ while on the cross, or he would...never...have...died. As simply as the bread and fishes was multiplied by God, so would an endless supply of oxygen charged blood sustained his body while on the cross.
But, as the passover lamb, he had to die. That’s the object Mary was blessed to help bring forth; the man Christ Jesus, not the God that chose to dwell in him without measure. <<

But that which was the son of Mary also rose from the dead. The spirit re-entered flesh. Jesus was not the co-existence of two beings in one form, but was one being with two natures. That one being did experience death in the manner that the saints still do; like all men, his soul persisted after death. But he is neither dead nor asleep; his soul has reunited with his flesh.

When Elizabeth said, “who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me,” she did not mean in the earthly sense, for Jesus the man had “no kingdom in this world.” Rather, the Greek word used to express the object of her wonder was the same word used in bibles in her day so as not to write the Holy Name. (i.e., “Thus sayeth the Lord:”)

It was not until the adoptionist heresies that anyone mistook “the Lord” for anything other than “YHWH.”

[Philo-Junius]

What would have been the point of Jesus’ constant prayers to the Father, if the Father and Son were indeed the same person?

Why baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

[Philo-Junius]

For those keeping score at home, the heresy we’re considering in Zuriel’s posts is Sabellianism, or modalism, in its modern, Oneness, expression seen in some Pentecostalist churches.

[mountn man]

Both are biblical: Mary is described in heaven waging a battle in Apoc. 12. Mary is of course, a necessary, recorded in the Gospels, instrument of the Incarnation and therefore of salvation.

Pure HERESY. CHRIST and CHRIST alone is the path to salvation. Mary was a SINNER, was born into sin through her father.

To have faith in anything or anyone other than or including with Christ is a LIE from Satan.

Satans plan was always to deflect worship from Christ. Sharing that worship or adoration with Mary achieves that goal.

The Woman described in Revelation is either Israel or the Church which Satan wishes to destroy.

Jesus wasn't born into a sin nature because the sin nature passes through man. That is why Adam not Eve was blamed for the first sin. The responsibility fell to Adam.

The Apostles never raised Mary up for worship. They directed everything to Christ.

God always required a unblemished blood sacrifice for sin. Jesus was the ultimate and final unblemished sacrifice.

To worship Mary or have any faith in her for salvation is pure blasphemy.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me (Mary's not included or wasn't left out.)

[annalex]

All these are your opinion, and it contradicts scripture. For example, when a woman is described in the scripture as the mother of Christ, I do not fantasize what it means, I read what is written.

Of course, John 14:6 is the Catholic teaching, as is the entire Holy Scripture.

[annalex]

All these are your opinion, and it contradicts scripture. For example, when a woman is described in the scripture as the mother of Christ, I do not fantasize what it means, I read what is written.

Of course, John 14:6 is the Catholic teaching, as is the entire Holy Scripture.

[mountn man]

All these are your opinion, and it contradicts scripture. For example, when a woman is described in the scripture as the mother of Christ, I do not fantasize what it means, I read what is written.

These are also the beliefs of men more knowledgeable than me. And what contradiction of scripture? Name one thing I stated that contradicted scripture. I can use scripture to verify everything I said.

Mary was a sinner the same as me. She is not devine. And has no power to forgive sins or provide salvation.

Her blessing was that God found favor with her to bear the savior of the world.

[annalex]

For example, to call the woman in Apoc 12 Israel contradicts the fact that she is identified as the mother of Christ.

Mary was a sinner the same as me. She is not devine. And has no power to forgive sins or provide salvation.

The idea that Mary was a sinner is not in the scripture. Indeed she is not divine, not a priest, and not a savior.

[mountn man]

Paul in Romans wrote: 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Again in Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

More importantly Mary herself in Luke 1: 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Savior from what? There is only one thing she could be saved from-SIN.

[Zuriel]

I said: I absolutely affirm he has risen from the dead.

You said: And yet you stated, in devestating contradiction to this, the assertion that what Mary was the mother of is dead.

My exact words that you refer to were: “What Mary was mother to died.”
I did not say dead, as in present tense.

**one being with two natures.**

One visible being, the man Christ Jesus (body and soul), AND the omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient God the Father that dwelleth in him, and raised him from the dead.

“..as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father..” Romans 6:4

Jesus said: “..the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” John 14:10

You said: When Elizabeth said, “who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me,”

No arguement here. Only that the words of Peter make it clear WHO made the Son Lord: “..that God hath made this same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Acts 2:36
That’s why he is Lord, the unlimited Spirit of God is GIVEN unto him. Mary didn’t make that part.

Gotta go, 200 miles to Chicago and hopefully no tornadoes enroute. I’ll check back tomorrow night.

[Zuriel]

**Why baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?**

The apostles didn’t just quote the Matthew 28:19 command, they obeyed it, by baptizing in the name of Jesus.

Jesus said: “I come in my Father’s name.”

He, by inheritance obtained a better name than they.

Jesus said that the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, would be sent in “my name”.

That’s why the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus.

Now, I suppose you think that after Jesus had opened their understanding, they still messed up. If you disagree, you’re slamming the Lord Jesus and his ability to teach.

Outta time, cheerio. I’ll check in tomorrow night.

[dangus]

Well I hope no tornadoes, either.

>> My exact words that you refer to were: “What Mary was mother to died.” I did not say dead, as in present tense. <<

Fair point, but in the context of an argument that Mary wasn’t the mother of God, there was a plain inference that that which died wasn’t God.

>> That’s why he is Lord, the unlimited Spirit of God is GIVEN unto him. Mary didn’t make that part. <<

Well, that’s the heresy of adoptionism, plain and simple. There you’ve gone and blown the entire doctrine of the trinity. True, there are verses of the bible which could lead one to adoptionism, if the matter were not clarified elsewhere: (”All power is given unto me in Heaven and on Earth”, etc.) Hence, we are very blessed to have the gospel of John spell out the incarnation of Christ which is more clear in ways than the infancy narratives:

“IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men... [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

Note, “was made” is used here in much the same was, “is given” is used in the problemmatic verse. Yet this passage is clear that All things were made by him. Likewise, Jesus, the second person of the trinity, grants himself all power and all authority.

The Word is the second person of the trinity; it is not the Father living in mere flesh.

[dangus]

>> Abraham beat Mary by about 2000 years. <<

Abraham was not a saint 2000 years before Mary. Abraham was in that portion of Hades named for him, until he was risen to Heaven when the crucified Christ “preached to the souls in prison.”

Do not Protestants insist that one is saved through faith IN CHRIST? As great as Abraham’s works were, and as great as his faith in God was (lest St. Paul’s praise of his faith be misconstrued), he could not have faith in what had not been revealed to him.

Mary was the first person to know of the birth of Christ, the first to believe he was the Son of God, and the first to see him resurrected (well, that’s a tie).

[annalex]

If you read Romans 3 you will discover a characterization of an entire human race without Christ. It goes like this:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 All have turned out of the way; they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good, there is not so much as one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have dealt deceitfully. The venom of asps is under their lips. 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery in their ways: 17 And the way of peace they have not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This is by the way, a citation from Psalm 13; Psalm 14 goes on to describe men who walk "without blemish, and work justice".

St. Paul's "all" is a literary device of generalization, like "all Mexicans have dark hair". Surely some people existed both in Judea and in Rome who were not bloodthristy murderers. It is not a prooftext for Mary's sinning.

Romans 5 does not even describe actual sin; moreover, "all" in verse 12 becomes "many" in verse 15. In other words, there, too, we deal with a generalization with implied exceptions.

Nobody denies that Jesus is Mary's Savior. It is He Who made her without sin.

[mountn man]

Nobody denies that Jesus is Mary's Savior. It is He Who made her without sin.

So what you're saying is because I am a Christian, that Jesus Christ is my savior, I am without sin and equal with Mary?

[annalex]

You could be:

2 Grace to you and peace be accomplished in the knowledge of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord: 3 As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness, are given us, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue. 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world. 5 And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; 6 And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; 7 And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. 8 For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

(2 Peter 1)

12 Let no sin therefore reign in your mortal body, so as to obey the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of iniquity unto sin; but present yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of justice unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you; for you are not under the law, but under grace.

(Romans 6)

[mountn man]

Abraham was not a saint 2000 years before Mary.

Romans4:
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

It is through Jesus that we are justified. Abrahams faith was what God was yet to do in the future. The scriptures tell us that Abraham was justified by faith. And only Christ justifies us. So Christ justified Abraham 2000 years before Mary.

Next Matthew 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The Bible itself tells us there were saints before Christ died. Before Mary died.

[mountn man]

1 Peter 3:
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

2 Timothy 2:
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I just wanted to thank you for this discussion. It has caused me to study the word to make my case, as I'm sure it has you. Which is what the scriptures tell us to do. We can agree that we disagree on certain issues, as long as we believe in Christ as savior.

:)

[annalex]

Likewise, thank you.