Posted on 04/03/2008 3:24:39 PM PDT by annalex
For instance, the "assumption of Mary" - that was simply made up. It wasn't even declared "from the seat" until the mid 1800's. But there's no evidence for it, no basis for it, none. The church has a long tradition, and the church fathers wrote a lot - and there is nothing indicating Mary died anything other than a natural death. The same can be said of the issue of her perpetual virginity.
This gets into the thing that keeps me from the church (though other things attract me to the church, the liturgy, parts of the tradition, etc) - a lot of stuff that got added along the way. I mean, the Borgias bought into the Papacy, they had orgies in the Vatican. Am I supposed to believe that anything "from the seat" (or whatever they call it) by men like that is on par with the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John or the Apostles Paul, Peter and James? Sorry, can't accept that.
Right. And also be the mother of the disciples. You don't think this is extraordinary?
1 Timothy says there is one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. Hebrews talks about Jesus as our great High Priest and there is no one between man and God but Jesus. No priests. No Mary. No one.
I am not aware of any scripture that would say that saints cannot intercede before Christ, or priests cannot do what priests are supposed to do. Re-read the passages you are referring to -- they don't say it.
undue emphasis and focus on Mary that keeps me away from the Catholic church to this point
I think you just told me that there should be no priests; are you saying that Catohlic Priesthood you could possibly live with, but not the Marian devotions?
they are quite definitely "worshipping" her - I doubt the average lay person, especially in the third world where there is little education, knows the difference (splitting hairs) of "adoration" vs. "veneration".
The difference is profound; it is not splitting hairs. When you see people in the Third World -- or any other world -- offer the holy Sacrifice of the Mass to Mary, that would be when mariolatry will occur. The reality is that Protestants do not really worship anything, because they don't have the Mass. So to you kneeling and prostrating is worship. That is entirely your defect of faith.
Nowhere does the Bible indicate Mary has any special status in the afterlife
Apocalypse 12.
So you are not Protestant either. What religion are you?
Hail Mary, Full of Grace, The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death. Amen.
If it is a tradition that developed within the Church, not as a nod to pagans, but by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, how would you know the difference?
Was there any authoritative body existent in the time Christ walked the earth that would have found for Jesus over the Pharisees when they claimed his disciples were "harvesting" on the Sabbath?
A plausible accusation does not prove the agreement of God.
The problem here is you will trust a book that can be twisted according to its own texts, but you will not trust the Church Jesus built because it does not square with your prejudice against doctrinal development.
It is not normal for the Pope to speak "ex cathedra." Nowhere near everything he says qualifies for this status. In fact, most scholars believe such authority has been used only 7 times in the last 2000 years. Not a common occurance, by any strech. Wikipedia actually has a decent list:
Now, if you'd like to have a discussion on any of these, feel free to ask, and I'm sure that there are many Catholic FReepers who would be more than willing to talk with you!
Incidentally, I can understand the difficulty with the Immaculate Conception going from scripture alone, but the Assumption is right there, Apoc. 12.
Again, you are assuming nothing was supposed to change. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that presumption needs to be validated.
The Catholic Church began to invent all sorts of things along the way, starting very early on. I don't accept anything made up by men as being on equal basis with scripture.
Then how do you exempt the New Testament from your lack of acceptence?
For instance, the "assumption of Mary" - that was simply made up. It wasn't even declared "from the seat" until the mid 1800's. But there's no evidence for it, no basis for it, none. The church has a long tradition, and the church fathers wrote a lot - and there is nothing indicating Mary died anything other than a natural death. The same can be said of the issue of her perpetual virginity.
The Church disagrees with you. What investigation have you conducted into the validity of the Catholic claims as opposed to the Protestant claims?
a lot of stuff that got added along the way. ...Am I supposed to believe that anything "from the seat" (or whatever they call it) by men like that is on par with the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John or the Apostles Paul, Peter and James? Sorry, can't accept that.
That, of course, is your choice, but do not confuse your preference for one source over another as dispositive.
The modern student can't even get a straight story about the Reagan administration; I'm sure not going to give the benefit of doubt to those opposed to the Church. Particularly when I spent twenty years a "slave to sin" as a "saved" Bible christian, but I was released from that torment as a Catholic.
That, in fact, is the one thing that has kept me from "crossing the Tiber" even though I am equally dissatisfied with Protestantism at the moment.
Seriously, how can Mary "hear" all the "prayers" directed at her if she isn't omnipresent? It's ridiculous. And I've thought it through repeatedly - any attempt to get around the fact that Mary is only a human soul and cannot possibly interact simultaneously with potentially billions of human prayer "requests" ends up back at omnipresence no matter how you slice it. And that's ridiculous.
Not to mention, why on earth does anyone feel the need to put anyone in between themselves and Jesus when all you really need is Jesus (as Jesus himself says). It's illogical.
I think I sent you a private commo that was spoze to be public. Excuse me for the repetition.
The dogma of the Assumption does not touch on the question of Mary's natural death. So the lack of evidence of early thought that she did NOT die a natural death would have no determinative bearing on the dogma.
Ummm, scripture is all we have to go on, that we can be sure goes back to the apostles (if you're a believer, anyway). The Catholic Church began to invent all sorts of things along the way, starting very early on. I don't accept anything made up by men as being on equal basis with scripture.
This, like your characterization of Marian dogma and devotion as Mariolatry, skews the argument. I'm not going ot defend mariolatry, and if I thought Church traditions and dogma were just "made up by men" I'd look at them differently myself. You may not trust God's promise to His Church, and so you may find Scripture "all we have to go on". Certainly, if the teachings of the Church were just "inventions" I wouldn't rely on them either. But maybe they're not inventions.
The Doctrine of Papal infallibility is not about the virtue of Popes. It's about God's promise to guide His Church. You can get clear water from rusty pipes and earthen vessels can hold treasures. The pipes are still rusty, the vessels earthen. It's the old book-cover thing, or a variation on it.
One advantage of being careful about how you approach the controversy is that you may find (I don't know) what you are accepting which may be just as questionable as what what you currently cannot accept.
Yep, and Jesus had His chance, and He indicated His mother was no different than other believers.
One of the reasons I read these testimonies is as an ongoing reminder, and caution, about how easy it is to topple over the edge into madness. And how sweet, wholesome, and convincing, that madness can be. As one who has skated too close to the edge of insanity for comfort, and has been delivered unto sanity by my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, this is an issue close to my heart.
The smart Catholics pray for intercession from the lesser known saints. Much better results.
Dr. E - I saw you pinged and was wondering when exactly you and Gamecock had started watching EWTN. lol. Alex Murphy hangs out on the catholic threads, largely to gently “poke”, but I’m convinced that he is a closet catholic and is already secretly wearing a scapular under his shirt. But you guys?
Could you share every step of the argument?
Against the general question I'd offer that she doesn't need to be omni-present, just able to be at more locations at once than the average human in the not-yet-resurrected body.
I don't mean to be flippant. I DO mean to say that "more than I have" is not equivalent to "all". Mary's being able to "process" more than one praying person at a time doesn't mean she can do anything and everything.
And as for her having more abilities than I do, this is where examining the Xtian hope in general and the Assumption in particular comes in handy.
The Assumkmption does not proclaim that Mary, instead of dying, went up like a sky-rocket. It proclaims that she "currently" enjoys the fullness of what every saved Xtian will enjoy at the last day.
Then our "made up" traditions suggest that as our risen Lord was able to break bread and vanish or to appear suddenly in a locked room, but still could eat as we do and was palpable so the saints in glory seem to have the ability to show themselves to people here and there.
So, unless a tradition's being Catholic is sufficient grounds to disbelieve it, the issue of MORE abilities is pretty much settled. What we don't know is the limit of those abilities.
WE DO know that the number of souls on earth and in Purgatory is not infinite, though it's probably really really large. So infinite capacity is not required, just really really large capacity. So omni-presence is not required.
This is what I mean by being careful. NOT that I don't goof, but that going carefully, step-by-step, and taking seriously each apparently minor distinction is better than a bunch of tacit and unexamined assumptions.
Mary is only a human soul
ONLY a human soul? But humans are what our Lord came here to save - and while we have a decent idea of what we were saved FROM, maybe we need to look at what we are saved TO. And maybe it's pretty amazingly wonderful and more than we dared to hope for.
Again, if your "feelings" where wrong, how could one prove it to you? To have no answer to that question is to admit you would be unresponsive even if one DID prove it to you.
You are very much at a point analogous to the rich young ruler. You are almost there, but you will not release the one vanity standing in your way. I pray you reconsider and listen to my witness regarding freedom from the law of sin and death as Paul spoke of in Romans 7.
Seriously, how can Mary "hear" all the "prayers" directed at her if she isn't omnipresent?
I don't know, but then I do not profess expertise on the physics of "The Presence of God."
Do you?
Not to mention, why on earth does anyone feel the need to put anyone in between themselves and Jesus when all you really need is Jesus (as Jesus himself says). It's illogical.
That is a misstatement of the Catholic position, as well as a fairly absurd assertion regarding logic. The first, I'm sure you know, you just don't agree. The second, ignores the testimony of Scripture that God often chooses things that "fly in the face" of man's wisdom.
One can not claim God didn't do something without the same authority one would need to claim God DID do something. Are you claiming such authority?
So much of Catholic doctrine relies on one questionably interpreted scripture, and one that usually does not harmonize with other scripture. Jesus is the real rock.
Has a need been asserted?
So much of Catholic doctrine relies on one questionably interpreted scripture, and one that usually does not harmonize with other scripture. Jesus is the real rock.
Do you have any references to early Christians holding this position? Again, I really don't know either way, and your post interests me. Thank you.
Hello - please remove me from this ping list.
And if anyone of my Catholic sisters and brothers can do so, please give me any scriptural passage in which Mary is prayed to.
In the church I attend, the central issue for those who attend is not “coming home” to “the church”. Rather it is “coming home” to the Lord Jesus Christ and His life transforming mercy, grace, and righteousness = the Good News of Jesus Christ!
I could go to many passages in the New Testament to explain what I am talking about - but here is just one in Colossians 2: Notice that in this passage, which Catholics and Protestants unitedly believe are part of the inerrant Word of God - this passage after explaining in magnificent terms what our salvation means.....tells us that all treasures of wisdom and knowledge are found in Jesus Christ alone! It further tells us to be on guard against being “taken captive” by hollow and deceptive philosophy which depends on “human tradition” and the basic principles of this world rather than on CHRIST !
Colossians 2
1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.
6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[b] God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21”Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
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