Posted on 03/28/2008 8:25:48 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
My niece's husband is a trainee Baptist pastor. Jimbo's hip, friendly, and fun to be with. He's smart and theologically savvy. I like him. He loves Jesus and believes the Bible, and on most moral and doctrinal issues I can affirm what he affirms. We agree on a lot.
But even when we agree, we don't see eye to eye. Somehow we seem to have reached our religious conclusions from different starting points and through different routes. A chapter in Mark Massa's book Anti-Catholicism in America illuminated the problem for me. Massa quotes an important theological work by David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, in which he argues that, underneath our religious language, customs, liturgies, rules, and rubrics, there exist more fundamental ways of seeing.
Catholic Symbols
Tracy says that Catholics have a basic concept of religion that is analogical. To put it simply, Catholics use things they know to try to understand the things they don't. Catholics seek to know God and His work in the world through material things: water, wine, bread, oil, incense, candles, images, and so on. For Catholics, some of these things are more than just symbols -- they are sacraments. They not only point to God, they convey His power and grace to us through the mystery of the Church.
For Catholics, this way of understanding the world, God, the cosmos, and everything is rich and multilayered. The Church is not only a symbol of the Body of Christ -- it is the Body of Christ. The bread brought forward by the members of the Body of Christ becomes itself the Body of Christ to feed the Body of Christ the Church.
The Catholic imagination and the Catholic soul are nurtured in a multitude of different sacraments, sacramentals, signs, and symbols. As a result, all physical things are part of God's plan of salvation. Life in all its fullness abounds with the mystery of God's life and love working through the world. This analogical way of seeing is dependent on, and comes from, the basic fact of God's revelation -- the Incarnation of His son, Jesus Christ.
Protestant Systems
In contrast, my nephew-in-law Jimbo, as a good Baptist, shares a radically different perspective on the whole shooting match. Jimbo, like every Protestant, has grown up within a basic religious paradigm that is more systematic. Tracy calls this "dialectical language." He says Protestant theologians, rather than seeing how physical things and human culture connect us to God, emphasize the radical separation between God and the physical world. The Protestant focuses primarily on man's alienation from God, the fact of sin, the need for redemption, and the need for man's response.
The linear thought process is like any other dialectic process: "Thesis = we sin; antithesis = God says 'no' to our attempts to save ourselves; synthesis = God saves us when we confess the truth and justice of God's 'no' to our sin."
The Protestant dialectical process means that Protestants emphasize the individual's existential inner response to God rather than the idea that God is "with us" working to save us in and through the physical and historical world.
Therefore, the idea that a visible church, a historic apostolic succession, a priesthood, and sacraments are necessary is -- at the very root of Protestant thinking -- alien and dangerous. For the typical Protestant, the Catholic Church is, by definition, worldly. Its very nature is materialistic and compromising with the world, the flesh, and the devil. For the Protestant there is therefore no relationship between Christ and culture. The faith is set up in dialectical opposition to the wisdom of man and the ways of the world.
Massa quotes sociologist Andrew Greeley in summation:
Therefore the fundamental differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are not doctrinal or ethical. The different propositional codes of the two heritages are but manifestations, tips of the iceberg, of more fundamentally differing sets of symbols. The Catholic ethic is "communitarian"; and the Protestant "individualistic" because of the preconscious "organizing" pictures of the two traditions that shape meaning and response to life for members of the respective heritages are different. Catholics and Protestants "see the world differently."
So what does all this mean for Jimbo and me? It means that even when we agree, we don't agree for the same reasons. For example, Jimbo and I may both sign up to work at the soup kitchen on Saturday mornings. As a Catholic, I'm more likely to see that hungry tramp as part of my human family whether he is a Catholic or not. I should feed him because he too is created in the image of God. In feeding him I am more likely to believe that I am also feeding Christ, and that this, in itself, is not only worthy but part of my own salvation, and part of the salvation of the world.
Jimbo wants to feed the homeless too, but he is more likely to do so because he wants to be personally obedient to the commands of Christ. He sees the poor hungry tramp as a lost soul who needs not only a sandwich but a savior. In fact, it's likely that Jimbo will give him the sandwich because he is concerned for the tramp's soul and wants to share the gospel with him and make sure he is saved.
This basic disconnect between our ways of thinking affects virtually everything. Because of the different perspectives, the Baptist and the Catholic will worship differently, pray differently, read the Bible differently, vote differently, produce radically different literature, art, and music. The two may share the same moral values, but they will do so for different reasons. They may share the same essential beliefs, but they will see them from different perspectives.
When we are engaged in dialogue with Protestants over doctrinal or ethical issues, our discussions will be illuminated if we understand the underlying differences of perspective. Furthermore, in the culture wars in which we are now engaged, Catholics and Protestants need to be allies. For the alliance to be strong and positive, both sides need to understand the essential differences of perspective.
Good fences make good neighbors. Only when we understand what truly separates us will we be able to work together with Protestants for the salvation of our society and the ultimate unity of Christ's Church.
Absolutely right. We are co-belligerents in the culture war as well, but that is as far as it should go. Our beliefs and histories are so radically different any attempt at unity denies our core beliefs.
I think a distinction that we often forget is the relationship between church and state. The RCC emerged through state sanction. It grew in authority and power through its connection to the state. During the 1,100 plus years between when it emerged and the Reformation there were large periods where it was as much a political and judicial organization as it was a church. In fact during many of those periods it was the organizing force of European civilization.
The vast majority of Christian churches not associated with the RCC do not have that historic link to the state. It makes for a very different view of the role of the Christian church.
It's always interesting to recall that Protestants have no formal curses written down and preserved in ink and blood against Roman Catholics, while the RCC maintains its violent anathemas against all who believe Christians are justified by faith in Christ alone.
"Rome has not essentially changed. Rome declared that what it said at the time of the Reformation was infallible and could not change. Declared it to be irreformible truth. Rome has not changed and precious truths of God's word are still worth upholding even at the cost of unity even at the cost of being considered "troublemakers" in the religious world. We need to guard the antithesis against the destructive error of Rome." -- Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen"The Reformation is dying daily in our day when the Ecumenical Movement, and other forces like unto it, wish to soften the antithesis with Rome, today. I want to assure you that it's not my pugnacious debating nature that makes me say we must exalt that antithesis and guard it. It's my love for the Lord Jesus Christ and the purity of His word.
I think that is a great example of the church state connection. The greatest power the RCC had prior to the Reformation was to declare that salvation would be denied to those that didn't comply with what it said. Even Kings submitted for fear of excommunication.
The Scriptures were not available to all and people believed most things the RCC claimed. Once the Scriptures began to be more available more and more Christians began to understand the personal nature of The Gospel.
That's well said and probably a good explanation of American tradition.
We do share a common belief in the sanctity of life, protection of marriage and other social concerns. Our views of Scripture and history are radically different. I will argue with RC's all day long not because I "hate" them, but because I know they are wrong in their understanding of The Gospel.
It's hard to understand your Church's stuff because it's like reading a brief from a criminal attorney. You have to start out knowing what the definition of "is" is and it seems to change everyday. ;-0
Fair enough.
But you didn’t answer my question - how come you guys don’t do that anymore? I used to find them kind of interesting to read.
I think the posters who normally put up those threads are taking a break. The discussions get just as heated. I have a hard time with Revelation. I find if I spend too much time focused on eschatology I begin seeing signs the world is ending tomorrow. It might, but I rather focus my planning beyond tomorrow.
You must have read my mind. :-)
I certainly do not hold out much hope for reconciliation on FR. I don't consider that sentiment to be to be vitriolic hatred, and you probably don't either. If you're more optomistic than me, more power to you.
I would go further than you regarding "reconciliation". Forget about the relative unimportance of FR in the big picture, I don't hold out hope for "reconciliation" ever under the only terms the RCC deems acceptable. Cooperation? Yes! "Reconciliation"? No!
Further, under the terms of the RCC I think it would be a disaster for Christianity.
I do think there are people who spend a majority of their time on FR deriding Catholicism. Absolutely. If you don't, you're not reading the same threads I am. I consider that to be a realistic evaluation, but not vitriolic hatred - do you?
Well spoken. May I borrow it with one minor change?
I do think there are people who spend a majority of their time on FR deriding Protestantism. Absolutely. If you don't, you're not reading the same threads I am. I consider that to be a realistic evaluation, but not vitriolic hatred - do you?
I do think there is a deep hatred for Catholicism. Not Catholics, I hope not. I don't assume that of anyone. But hatred of the Church? Yes, I do think there is. The descriptives used for the Church frequently used here bear that out and I don't see how you could fail to see them. In any event, believing that there are those who hate Catholicism is not, in itself, a hateful comment. Do you think it is?
No I don't believe your observation is hateful. Once again I could change the words "Catholic" and "Catholicism" to "Protestant" and "protestantism". Is that a hateful observation?
Scripture is True when it says of men that, without life in Christ and the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, man is seeing yet blind, hearing but deaf, living but dead. No man can be argued into the kingdom of God nor convinced of the Truth. God calls those whom He has chosen - we are worse than unable to save them unless He has chosen them.
How long should we try to convince the RCs of the truth?
AMEN! Beautifully stated.
How long should we try to convince the RCs of the truth?
For the sake of the Gospel, forever. For the sake of the RCC, a little less.
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves" -- Isaiah 28:14-15"Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.