Posted on 03/20/2008 8:55:06 PM PDT by annalex
The bump list from the recent Resources thread.
Blessed Holy Thursday to you all.
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I converted to Catholicism at the age of 12 because of a girl that I thought I was in love with. She left the church and I never saw her again. I stayed in love with the Church.
Thanks for the post but I don’t understand exactly the doctrines of the Catholic church, being the Protestant Christian that I am.
A priest in my city said this in his homily from last week’s mass: “....if I get to heaven”.
Thist statement has greatly troubled a Catholic friend of mine who was at that service.
She asked another Catholic friend about this statement....basicaly wondering how could a Priest say that? i.e. He doesn’t believe he IS DEFINITELY going to heaven?
The other friend talked about mortal sins and what the Catholic church believes about that....
I would like any and all Catholics here who would like to offer an explanation for this Priest’s comments.
Does it mean, is it true, that Catholic Christians are not assured of their eternal life with Jesus Christ in heaven immediately after they die...and if not ....why not and when will they receive this assurance of eternal life in heaven with Jesus Christ?
Thanks for the exlanations. Will check back in tomorrow late.
“explanations” - correction
This looks great. Will read in later detail in the morning. Just returning from Adoration after Holy Thursday Mass.
Something is required of us -- in fact, quite a bit (Mt 25). To presume we will be judged as justified before we actually are reminds us of the pharisee who made that presumption (Lk 18:10-14). This is the road to justification as outlined by St. Peter:
2 Grace to you and peace be accomplished in the knowledge of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord: 3 As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness, are given us, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue. 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world. 5 And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; 6 And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; 7 And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. 8 For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time."Make sure your calling and election" -- that comes in the end.(2 Peter 1)
Excellent question, that cuts to the heart of the Catholic faith.
In Catholic theology, salvation bears very little resemblance to the somewhat legalistic event it sometimes appears to be in some (only some!) familiar Protestant approaches. It is not a single event, in which the sinner recites a formula prayer, or otherwise declares that Jesus Christ is his or her personal Lord and savior, and from that point forward, they are saved. Rather, in the Catholic Church, salvation is all about being in relationship with Christ. Mere belief is not sufficient - after all, even the Devil "believes" in God. Without a personal relationship with the Lord, you have a "faith" which is dead and which avails you nothing.
In Catholic Christianity, going through your life convinced that you are going to Heaven regardless of how you conduct your life or whether you walk in the paths of the Lord is treated as a particular kind of sin, called presumption. It is considered a very depraved form of arrogance. I don't mean to suggest that Protestants who think "once saved, always saved" are arrogant, I am just explaining the Catholic perspective.
At the same time Catholics can and should have confidence in the mercy of God. God is love and went so far as to die for our sins; He does not go around damning repentant sinners, no matter how horrible their sins might be. I am certain that the priest in your story is pretty sure he is going to go to Heaven, but at the same time he is not going to "presumptuously" say that his journey with Christ is complete or that he does not still need to grow in the Lord. We live in faith and trust, but we acknowledge that we have to respond to the call of Jesus every day; we can't just point back to one time however many years ago when we claimed the Lord as our own. (Matthew 7:21)
I hope that this explanation is helpful and unoffensive...
“I converted to Catholicism at the age of 12 because of a girl that I thought I was in love with. She left the church and I never saw her again. I stayed in love with the Church.”
I married my Catholic wife, she was patient with me as I didn’t convert initially. She seemed to know that eventually I’d see the Truth. She was and is a gift to me in many ways.
I read this last year - great explanation. In my parish in a small Southern town, we have over 20 coming into the Church on the Easter Vigil this year. We had close to 30 last year.
And of course, as wonderful as it is to celebrate the reception of new Catholics at the Easter Vigil, there are others who come into the Church more quietly, often through a pastoral provision. I know of one such case in the past week. A lifelong Episcopalian who had long considered herself “Catholic” in belief, felt driven from her church due to all the “happenings” in TEC. As an older adult, she had been attending Mass for over a year. With our pastor’s guidance, she made her first confession and a profession of faith just this week. Truly, new Catholics are born every day. ;-)
Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
And,
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
There are many scriptural passages that re-inforce the fact that we are not guaranteed salvation. We hope for it.
The others have answered the question very well. All I can add is salvation is a gift Christ laid out for all, but like any gift we as an individual have to accept that gift. By accepting that gift it means living a life for christ, choosing to do good, loving one another, etc.
At any time we have choices, good or evil and if we choose evil, we are choosing to tell Christ thank you for the gift, but I reject that gift.
His grace is great enough to allow us the freedom to reject that gift. His grace is also great enough to leave the gift lying there for us to accept over and over again.
Look at the apostles, they all rejected the gift one way or another and except for Judas they all came back and accepted the gift again.
Someone earlier made a great post for you. I just wanted to add a few things. Catholics do not believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). We believe we can lose our salvation if we commit serious sins and thereby cut off ourselves from God or by losing our faith.
I have noticed that many Protestants who believe in OSAS say that if someone loses their faith, he must never have had faith in the first place. They simply don’t believe back slidding is possible. This seems to contradict common sense to me. There are formerly fervent Christians who are now Buddhists or Muslims or athiests. Am I really to believe they were all faking it when they claimed to be saved Christians?
Catholics believe there are really two ways to be presumptuous. 1) You’re presumptuous when you assume you’re so sinful that you can’t be saved as if God’s grace isn’t powerful enough to help you. 2) You’re presumptuous when you assume you’re saved no matter what you do - including when you choose a sinful life. We believe these presumptions are sinful for the one presumes God can’t help you and the other presumes you don’t really need His help at all or that a feeling equals salvation itself.
Here are two links. One is to an article by former Evnagelical who is now a Catholic while the other is a link to a a site run by a former Catholic now a Protestant (and rather anti-Catholic) who wrote a mammoth book against OSAS:
1) http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/stewart_security_jan07.asp
(also see this http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp)
2) http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/cat1c.htm
I hope this helps!
"Since Your Majesty and Your Lordships desire a simple reply, I will answer.
Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason, and not by Popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot, and I will not recant. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me." |
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