Posted on 03/15/2008 10:17:55 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper
More than once during these talks I referred to Luther and what always occurred to me as his destructive influence. I pointed out that even in such an admirable book as Rohan Butler's “The Roots of National Socialism” the spiritual origins of Nazism and Luther's influence had not been given the necessary importance. Then I was asked if I would be prepared to elaborate to them—about a dozen of the very senior boys, that is—my own views on Luther and Lutheranism. I agreed—with the proviso that they would be my own views and nothing else. Admittedly, I had read more on Luther and about Luther than on most other subjects. But I wanted to make it quite clear that I would not speak to them with the voice of a great authority, but would merely give them my own interpretation. I told them, moreover, that I should try to prove how dangerous it is to accept legends; and that the picture I had of Luther and his influence was thoroughly contradictory of the customary Luther of the legend.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicapologetics.info ...
Hi, DrE. It is always and forever a fact that Martin Luther was far more concerned with the abuses of the the Catholic Church than he ever was the recalcitrance of Judaism toward its own Messiah.
No one did enough to prevent Nazism. Some, like huge blocks of Prussian Protestant voters, did plenty to make it happen.
No one did more to save Jews than the Vatican under Pius XII.
Could you identify which particular statements by the author leads you to that conclusion? Assuming you actually read it.
The "statement" is present in the article's title proposition.
It logically strikes me that those of Creationist/ID ideology that use a purported connection between Hitler and Darwin to condemn Darwin as evil should also then believe that a purported connection between Hitler and Luther likewise condemns Luther as evil.
There's a further issue I didn't address.
Would it really accomplish anything good if he did?
Do you think there are a lot of Catholics who just plain don't realize that they shouldn't be voting for pro-abortion candidates, and wouldn't do it if the Pope said not to?
Some people claim that the Pope could have "stopped the Holocaust" by telling Catholics not to participate in it. I would submit that someone who is not Catholic enough to understand that gassing innocent people is a grave sin, and that it's bad to commit a grave sin, isn't going to be motivated to change by any number of Papal pronouncements.
Bonhoffer saved Jews?
That’s not what the Jews seem to think:
(begin paste)
Moreover, Bonhoeffer did not oppose the Nazis per se, but a faction within the church that sought to negate the rights of converts. There is no proof that he was involved in saving Jews. Bonhoeffer’s actions can be summarized as follows:
First and foremost, Bonhoeffer did not save any Jews.
He did not directly save any converts. He did refer one convert (who held a high position in the church) to the care of his brother-in-law who worked in military intelligence; this man took a group of 13 Jews and converts, disguised them as spies and spirited them to Switzerland, under the cover and protection of the Abwehr – the German military intelligence. It was his brother-in-law and not Bonhoeffer who performed this act. In another instance, in 1937 when emigration from Germany was still permitted, Bonhoeffer helped his second brother-in-law, a Jewish convert, immigrate to England by arranging him a job.
He never spoke out publicly against the persecution of the Jews, only against the negation of rights of converts inside the churches.
In April 1933, three months after the rise of the Nazis to power and the first actions against Jews by the regime, Bonhoeffer published an article stating that the country (Nazi Germany) had the right to take steps towards the Jewish problem as long as it sees this as a necessity to keeping order and that the church should not intercede unless Christian converts are affected. He justified the persecution of Jews from a theological perspective, explaining that it would never stop until the Jews asked forgiveness for the crucifixion of Jesus and accept Christianity as their faith. He never rescinded this statement (at least not publicly).
He was arrested in 1943 and was executed in April of 1945 for his opposition to the Nazi regime.
(end paste)
I would at least say he helped save one man, but Jews won’t even give him that. http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/press_room/press_releases/Court.html
I was not aware of that.
But it would be the task of Yad Vashem to record those facts accurately.
LOL. "Hard edge"?!?
Almost to a one, Bible-believing Christians will affirm our salvation by the imputed righteousness of Christ, and not according to the lie of Rome that says Christ's righteousness is infused into us, thereby permitting a man's good works to earn him his salvation.
The devil is indeed in the details.
That would seem to explain why you get so many of them wrong.
You are wrong once again.
You wrote:
“That you even ask that question is pathetic.”
No, this is a far more pathetic comment:
“What barbaric, idiotic, appeasing comments.” Post #283
Perhaps we’re to believe Pinchas is not a “reputable historian.”
Bingo!
“But it would be the task of Yad Vashem to record those facts accurately.”
I wasn’t aware of it either, but the Yad Vashem is the definitive voice of the Shoah.
If fact, I have three copies. I'll give you one of mine.
Perhaps we are supposed to believe Yad Vashem does not employ “reputable historians.”
Why? Would it? Again, you evade the question, you don't answer it.
How many married Catholics in the US use birth control? 80%? 90%? 95%?
Do you want me to show you the infallible Papal pronouncement condemning birth control?
Do you want me to point you to the vast number of orthodox moral theologians who will tell you that birth control is a mortal sin?
It's not necessary for the Pope to issue a document every six months reminding everyone that "Thou shalt not kill" is still in force. It wasn't necessary in 1942, either.
The various ringing denunciations -- beginning with Mit Brennender Sorge and continuing through the war years -- from the Vatican didn't stop the killing, but we're supposed to believe that *just one more* would have.
What's pathetic is that you think the Catholic faith is such a shallow, empty thing that it amounts to billions of robots doing whatever the Pope says, even though you know full well that's far from the truth.
Bonhoeffer was a reformed Lutheran. But if you want him, we will gladly share him with you.
Fuzzy logic huh.
Yeah, like this one you fumble completely:
the lie of Rome that says Christ's righteousness is infused into us, thereby permitting a man's good works to earn him his salvation
Someone infused with Christ's righteousness is saved already, and couldn't "earn him his salvation" if he tried.
That is the deception being presented. However:
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