Posted on 02/28/2008 5:08:17 AM PST by restornu
ON SATURDAY, I SPENT a couple of hours chatting with a friend who runs an evangelical bookstore. He set the shop up in the heart of Mormon country and has kept at it for 30 years. "I have to say, I admire your devotion," I tell him.
"I never take credit for personal virtue," he says. "That's you guys."
It's the way things are between us. We don't play a lot of slap and tickle. We know where we stand.
Evangelical faith comes out as confidence and boldness, which Mormons often see as brazen.
Mormon faith comes out as obedience, which evangelicals often see as smug.
"But you do see yourself as a sinner," I say.
"Yes."
"Well," I say, "among your many sins, I don't see 'lack of devotion."'
He smiles.
I don't mind playing to type.
He says he likes talking with me because I'm an "old returned missionary." The new returned missionaries, he says, speak in the same earnest voice and say the same things in the same way.
The comment strikes me as curious. I've never seen evangelicals as a colorful bouquet of religious style and thought.
He says he can size people with one question: "Are you a good person?" If they say "yes" or "I try to be," they haven't been saved. True Christians, he says, see themselves as sinners, washed in the blood of Jesus.
True Christians, I think to myself, behave like true Christians. I suppose it's why our faiths are natural rivals. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sends thousands into the world to show people they can live better lives. Evangelicals send out thousands to tell people it doesn't matter what they do. Yes, they see Mormonism as a cult because we stress behavior. But they also see Catholicism as a cult, along with Jehovah's Witnesses, large swaths of the Episcopal Church, Muslims, most Quakers and probably Jews. In fact, the only reason I can see for Mormons to be so concerned about being accepted by evangelicals is politics. Evangelicals control the right wing of the Republican Party. If druids controlled the Republican right, political Mormons would look for ways to bond with their druid brethren.
"Your good works aren't bad works," my friend is saying. "They're just dead works. Meaningless."
"The Jesus I believe in would find that a bit harsh," I say.
He opens his Bible to let me know my Jesus isn't Paul's Jesus.
I tell him my Jesus shows up in the gospels.
We're like two old men playing checkers in the park. We know each other's moves. We just play the game out for company.
I tell him I have to go.
He says he'll pray for me. He sees me getting older and fears I soon may be beyond rescue.
I leave, knowing what I've always known. True believers can be civil to each other, they can even join hands. But they can never join hearts. That's just a pipe dream of people who don't know true believers.
Wringing your hands over being accepted by other religions is a waste of a good pair of hands. Better to use them to hold to your ideals. Let the Founder sort it all out.
Unlike politics, in Christianity, his vote is the only one that counts, anyway
Just for you!
The saga of the natural man continues!:)
Now what do I have to do with this story?
*Hi Mom*
In other words,... Mormons think they are better behaved than everyone else and don’t need Jesus, because they “act” like Christians?
It’s an act folks. Mormons are just people. As well as presenting an attitude of being “Christ-like” (whatever THAT means)
Utah is:
#1 in prescription drug abuse
#1 in depression,
#1 in rapes
In the top 3 for fraud
In the top 3 for bankruptcy.
But they have you believing they are “better, nicer” than everyone else. What a scam.
Well it was to be about humor but leave it to you to change the old chums banter!
True Christians, I think to myself, behave like true Christians.
Yes and no. True Christians do not obtain their salvation through their behavior, they obtain it through Jesus Christ...but if they are true Christians then their behavior should reflect their faith in Christ.
I suppose it's why our faiths are natural rivals. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sends thousands into the world to show people they can live better lives. Evangelicals send out thousands to tell people it doesn't matter what they do.
False statement. If the author really has spent years in conversation he's still missed the point. Behavior DOES matter, but we can't earn our salvation by our behavior...but if we are saved our behavior should reflect that. So it's false to claim Evangelicals teach behavior doesn't matter.
Yes, they see Mormonism as a cult because we stress behavior. But they also see Catholicism as a cult, along with Jehovah's Witnesses, large swaths of the Episcopal Church, Muslims, most Quakers and probably Jews.
This reflects a poor understanding of what a cult is....but that his a huge topic that doesn't easily fit in a post. To just touch on his statement...Evangelicals do view Mormonism as a cult because it claims to be Christian, but does not hold to orthodox Christian teachings (particularly in core, critical areas). Jehovah's Witnesses are likewise considered a cult for the same reason. The "large swaths" of Episcopals would probably be more accurately described as apostate. Islam is a false religion...although some refer to it as a death cult since murder and violence seem to play a central part of the religion for many of it's adherents. Catholicism probably falls across several categories since there is such a large range of actual practice and belief within it, ranging from apostate to cult to true Christians (at least in my experience).
In fact, the only reason I can see for Mormons to be so concerned about being accepted by evangelicals is politics. Evangelicals control the right wing of the Republican Party. If druids controlled the Republican right, political Mormons would look for ways to bond with their druid brethren.
Wow, that's pretty amazing...not concerned about truth...willing to even seek to bond with druids were they to hold some political clout? That's a pretty telling remark.
Also, I have strong doubts about how much control Evangelicals have over any part of the Republican party...the word influence might be much more accurate than control.
Yeah....some serious "humor" contained in this line!
I read it as an insight into a interview of two old friends of different faiths having their usual one on one.
That’s nice.
I read it as a continuing discussion about the differences between Mormonism and Evangelical.....and I responded as such.
Concur.
Our behavior doesn’t change our salvation, for it is entirely the work of God in one action of regeneration, but our behavior and thinking well effects the status of our ongoing sanctification, which also is His work in us, but He is not free to grace us with more sanctification until we return to Him. It might be better to say, when we are out of fellowship with Him, after salvation, we place ourselves in a position where we are also unable to receive His grace without hardening our hearts or scarring our souls.
take a chile pill!
You posted the article. I would have thought you would want responses.
BTW what is a chile? Do they come in capsules or tablets? :-)
It is our desire and receiving the atonement of Jesus Christ which enables us to change our behavior!
That’s the super-secret ingredient from planet Snark, used to acquire the perfect green tint in the Jell-O.
(Don’t tell anyone.)
Well, resty, if you are going to continue to use the "natural man" definition, here is the description you posted of what you mean by the term for all to see:
From your post Here
Sounds pretty smug to me when used by a mormon as an accusation against non-mormons.
Gal 5 (behavior of the natural man)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Even when man is sarcastic or get mean towards another or try to spin another ones words that is the natural man state.
The Holy Spirit is unable to visit or dwell in a vessels like that.
1 Cor. 2: 14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned
James 1: 23
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
FIP Ping
Sounds pretty brazen to me when the another faith also berates someone elses faith!
It also shows some have no humor!
” Evangelicals send out thousands to tell people it doesn’t matter what they do. Yes, they see Mormonism as a cult because we stress behavior. But they also see Catholicism as a cult, “
Sounds to me like another soy milk Mormon selling a lie since Evangelical includes many Catholics, and Catholics do not accept Mormons as Christian.
WIKIPEDIA:
>”The news media (especially in the United States) often use the term to describe Fundamentalist Protestant Christians.[2] This is only partly accurate, as the evangelical movement embraces a wide range of expressions of faith, including Catholics and Mainline Protestants.”
>”The Catholic Church has a long history of evangelical and missionary work.[3][4] Today, Catholics have responded to Pope John Paul II’s call urging the laity to become more active in the Church’s primary mission of evangelization. [5]”
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