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To: stfassisi; Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
Pope PAUL VI explains this well ”Every sin in fact causes a perturbation in the universal order established by God in His ineffable wisdom and infinite charity, and the destruction of immense values with respect to the sinner himself and to the human community."

Indeed. Sin distorts the entire creation. It is unfathomable that God built a good world and then decided to shake everything just so he can put it back together as a manifestation of His own glory! Yet our Protestant friends believe just that.

"Christians throughout history have always regarded sin not only as a transgression of divine law but also—though not always in a direct and evident way—as contempt for or disregard of the friendship between God and man "

Indeed. In the Orthodox tradition, the confession begins with "I confess to God, before you, venerable father (priest, as our witness), that I have sinned out of ingratitude to God...

We don't see sin in legal terms; you seed, you get a ticket, you pay the fine and you are free. I don't think anything describes sin better than ingratitude.

Ingratitude to the loved ones requires much more than penance. It hurts, it burns, it brings tears to our eyes; it makes one wish he were dead.

5,620 posted on 05/17/2008 8:58:15 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

seed=speed


5,621 posted on 05/17/2008 8:59:01 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
Ingratitude to the loved ones requires much more than penance. It hurts, it burns, it brings tears to our eyes; it makes one wish he were dead.

Absolutely,and beautifully stated!I have not heard it said that way before, but have felt that way

Thank You,Dear Kosta

I wish you a Blessed day!

5,632 posted on 05/17/2008 10:33:33 AM PDT by stfassisi ( ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; irishtenor; HarleyD; blue-duncan; Lord_Calvinus; Quix; wmfights; ...
Sin distorts the entire creation.

It's that kind of thinking that keeps men from recognizing their own sins and their position in God's creation.

Sin is part and parcel of this world. It entered the world with Adam and a fallen creation IS now the creation.

And if God didn't WANT this creation to exist, this creation wouldn't exist. Something else would exist.

If the creation were not fallen, there would be no need for Jesus Christ. Therefore, it follows that because Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," sin was included in God's plan for His creation.

To believe otherwise negates Christ Himself.

"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." -- Romans 8:22

Sin does not just "distort" us; we are sin ("for everything not of faith is sin"), unless and until we are made new creatures in Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" -- Romans 8:8-16

So again it looks like an under-estimation of men's sin nature once more elevates men at the expense of God. Men are not "distorted" by sin; men are sin, unless Christ's righteousness covers them.

MERITING UNMERITED FAVOR?

"...we can all say with David, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful at the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5). But some might respond by asking, how can we be "condemned" by God for the sins of another person? How can the disobedience of Adam be attributed to me? Surely this is unfair and unjust! But it must quickly be pointed out that if this is the case, that is, if it is true that it is unjust for us to be considered guilty for the acts of another, then we will have destroyed the heart and center of the Christian faith. You see, Christ was a man who was credited with our injustice. He took our sin upon himself, and was judged in our place. Therefore, if it is unjust for us to be considered guilty for Adam's sin, then it would be equally unjust for God to consider Christ guilty for our sins, an assertion that essentially destroys the Christian doctrine of salvation..."

5,633 posted on 05/17/2008 11:38:07 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: kosta50; stfassisi; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
STF: "Christians throughout history have always regarded sin not only as a transgression of divine law but also—though not always in a direct and evident way—as contempt for or disregard of the friendship between God and man."

Kosta: "Indeed. In the Orthodox tradition, the confession begins with "I confess to God, before you, venerable father (priest, as our witness), that I have sinned out of ingratitude to God...

WHAT?! :) Kosta, you argued to me strenuously on this thread that Jesus had no friendship at all with His disciples, and there was no personal family-type relationship among them. You believe in an unknowable and impersonal God per your posts. That really seems to undercut the point you are trying to support.

5,669 posted on 05/19/2008 6:07:26 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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