Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Indeed, Catholics do wake up all the time to the truth of Calvinism. Nice collection, BTW. Depending upon your Baptist streak (Paedo or Credo) you are missing at least Knox or Zwingwhatever.
Does it count that I was thinking of naming a horse “Pope.” That way, when he acts up, I can spank his naughty horses rear and tell him to reform to the leadership of Lord Calvinus. ;^)
I disagree with your views. As for Christ’s grace, I would reserve the judgment to Him. You can keep on believeing that Christ did biblical genocides. If that’s what the Portestants believe, then they are a lot sicker than I ever thought.
Jesus was judged on the Cross? Now I understand why the Church went after heretics.
Amen, FK. Good responses.
AMEN! Go, Quix, go.
Man, this is UNbelievable! Whew.
Oh, sure. Very convicing. And I imagine with a little star dust you can fly too...right? So, this is not really you doing the answering but the Holy Spirit? Should I porstrate myself to the ground now? This is the type of self-deifcation that the Reformed thoelogy does to people, by elevting their own interpretation on the level of God. I have news for you: it's called ego and it is spelled self0righteousness.
you still are alleging that "God" contradicts Christ
Christ of the Gospels contrasts a lot of the OT. The two are often diametrically opposed.
("Moses wrote about ME!")
You have still failed to show me where. Raising of a prophet is a far stretch of one's imagiantion.
By my own stated beliefs you have me saying that God trumps God because I say that all scripture is God-breathed. That's impossible.
By your stated beliefs, yes. But your stated beliefs are about as credible as anyone else's stated beliefs. They are not a certificate of truth to anyone except you and those who think like you, but not in any absolute sense. I hope you realize this one day. It's a humbling experience, FK.
No one holds a monopoly on truth. It's a choice what we believe.
Kosta: True Christians put Christ first, Paul and Moses second.
FK: In terms of their PERSONS, yes of course. But we are talking about scripture here. God-breathed does not trump God-breathed as to truth
You have no proof that the Bible is God-breathed (as you define it). You choose to believe it.
Thank you, dear FK. I appreciate your stand for the faith and our Bible.
To God be the glory, not man, never man.
Whatever it is that "zaps" you (you really can't prove it's the Holy Spirit), it predisposes you to uncritically accept everything written in the Bible as written by God.
So, when the Holy Spirit touched me as a teenager, I was not instantly transformed into a believer. I was sent to the scriptures
You were sent? Let's see, the Holy Spirit (allegedly) also directs you to quote a particular verse. Do you see a pattern there? Everything you do is not you doing it but God. You are just His puppet on a string. Do you ever take any responsibility for your actions, FK? Or is it always God? How convenient! You are an instrument of God!? I am beginning to believe that you really believe that!
Now, when you talk about a predisposition to accept everything (or at least many things, since there are always questions) in the Bible as true, I can live with that. That represents the real change that the Holy Spirit effected in us
So, when a Muslim accepts his faith, who "touched" him? And which one of you has a proof-positive caller ID to prove such nonsense? It's all hot air, I tell you, All hot air.
I think a priori, or baseless, faith cannot be true since there is nothing behind it.
That's right. That's how the Bible wants you to believe, like little children, no questions asked, just blind acceptance whatever the grownups tell you.
Naivete comes to mind, along with innocence that so many professional Bible thumpers have exploited. And, as regards making sense that you mention, it makes perfect "sense" to the child to be told that Peter Pan could fly, and the child truly believesit!
I do not legitimize faith in anything else because I think Christianity is very different from other faiths
Who are you to legitimize anything, FK? And what kind of a legitimate criterion is it to deligitimize something because it's different? I can see how slavery found a fertile ground on such Bible-breathed thinking.
It makes different claims, its Holy Book is unlike any other, and its effect on the world is unmatched
Different claims make something "legitimate" just because they are different??? How logical is that, FK? As for the effects on the world, 1.2 billion people are Muslims and growing while Christianity is dying in Europe and in many other parts of the world. If the scale is set straight, Christianity is only one among many human activities that impacted the world. And then we have such legacies as the Crusades, the Inquisition, the 100-year religious war between Protestants and Catholics, the Bible-approved slavery, and what not. I agree that some of its effects are unmatched, but that can be both positive and negative. One thing Christianity certainly doesn't do is prove itself to be better than others.
If anything, Christianity is a colossal failure. Two thousand years after Christ came to redeem the world, the world remains cruel, hostile and merciless. In Europe, 6% of believers go to church on Sundays and in America the numbers of agnostics and outright atheists is doubling, while church attendance takes a nose dive. We live in a country that subscribes to Christianity in over 80% of the population, yet as a nation we live a secular life and in a society that is as un-Christian as it gets. Sex, violence and greed dominate the scene. America doesn't export Christianity. It exports weapons!
The Holy Spirit changes a man's heart and leads him to true faith IN something real that is BASED on something real.
What you just said is as "real" as unicorns on Jupiter. Your beliefs are real to you. They are not universally real.
Jesus didn't criticize Abraham or Moses, yet they both made sacrifices, and the Law, which Christians reject, was written by Moses (even though Christ never criticized him). Was Moses wrong?
Moses couldn't have been wrong since the Law he wrote down came directly from God. Abraham and Moses made sacrifices, but since they were righteous they knew that it was in obedience and not in exchange for salvation. And Christians should not reject the Law. The Ten Commandments, for example, are just as relevant today as when they were given. Not being "under the Law" does not mean wholesale rejection of it.
This seems to be the newly discovered "aha" phrase. God created man—body and soul. A human being is not human, as created, without one or the other. So, while the spirit (life) and the body (dirt) are separate, a human being needs both to be human, just as any living thing needs both to be what God intended it to be.
Sure, but what has this to do with salvation? Nothing. The Bible gives the formula for that, and it doesn't involve things of the flesh.
If, as your example of John says (talk about basing everything on one verse in the Bible!), flesh counts for nothing, then why don't we just dump the bodies of the deceased like they are "nothing," instead of treating them as if they were still "something," or better yet, somebody?
A body should be properly disposed of for public health reasons, but after that how they are treated is an emotional function of the people. Since becoming a Christian I have never had any special attachment to the bodies of departed ones. I even told my wife to get me a cheap casket if I go first since I certainly won't be able to "enjoy" a fancy one. :)
This is more of your prideful spin to pander to your FR followers fk,considering you know full well I did not write anyone who disagrees with the Catholic Church is cursed to hell.
You also know that the church does not teach that the invincibly ignorant or the brainwashed mislead will not have Salvation.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
I wrote when you speak lies against the Blessed Sacrament of our Lord that you are not guided by the Holy Spirit and aiding the devil. I stand firm behind this !
I have been busy traveling this week and will address some of the other issues in your post when I get the chance,God willing
***I even told my wife to get me a cheap casket if I go first since I certainly won’t be able to “enjoy” a fancy one. :)***
I want one with air conditioning and an “Eternal Beer Keg” so I can rest in peace :>)
We understand you reject Paul. Do you also reject John? John 5 presents good Word.
He didn't say that in your Bible. He said it according to the Septuagint, which your side rejects. You have got to make up your mind.
My mind has never changed, and He certainly DID say that in my Bible. I do not have to accept the Septuagint in its entirety to accept what Jesus said. In most cases the Septuagint and the MT agree. You appear to try to be painting a picture that the two texts are wholly incompatible when that just isn't the case. The quibbling you are doing over the word "word" is so minor it makes no difference. It's a non-issue, as the context makes clear.
FK: If everything that comes from God is divine in essence then everything in the world is divine in essence. So, your argument falls apart since no one goes around or believes that anyone should worship everything in God's creation.
So, then, what God makes is not perfect??? God makes imperfect things? What a sloppy "God" you believe in! No wonder people have no respect for environment.
Where do you see that in my post? God makes what He makes perfect for its intended purposes. God made the rocks He made perfectly according to His design, but He does not want us to worship them. Rocks are not divine.
Were we not created in God's image and likeness, or did God create us as depraved, decrepit, evil sinners? Wait, the Reformed God would do that, of course! It all makes sense now! :)
God did not create Adam's sin, but He did allow it to corrupt all men since. So, the fact that we are totally depraved when born is not on God.
Except that they "are" God's words because you choose to believe they are. You have no proof whatsoever that they are.
I cannot prove anything to one who is already predisposed and committed to believing the reverse. In those cases facts are irrelevant.
FK: Well sure. That's what John 14 means: John 14:25-26 :...the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Just as I thought, you added the word "scriptures" to this! See how things get corrupt? It says nothing of scriptures. It doesn't specify how the HS will illuminate us.
So, your reasoning process says that illuminating the scriptures IS NOT included with "all things" nor reminding people of what Christ said??? OK.
Except when it comes to Paul, of course. He tells us things Jesus never told others.
You can't possibly know that. You must know that not everything Jesus ever said appears in the Gospels. Paul wrote some things that do not specifically appear elsewhere in the Bible, but so what? The few and selected red letter verses that you only accept are not the whole revelation.
How could Jesus, an observant Jew, criticize the faith He did not come (or want) to change?
He criticized the Pharisees and others who misapplied the faith by following a works-in-exchange-for-Heaven model. The faith that God handed down in the OT was never about earned salvation regardless of how many Jews followed it then or how many Christians follow it today.
His "opposition" was to some of the people for their misinterpretation (too literal) of the Law. He never said works-based worship was wrong and pointless and unnecessary. Paul does.
Your logic seems to be that if Jesus didn't say something specifically in the words you "need" to hear, then He must necessarily have endorsed its opposite. That's just nonsense. What Jesus DID specifically say was that the work of God was to believe, not to earn points through works.
FK: First comes grace. Then one learns what to have faith in. Then one has faith. The overall point is that if one prays from "nothing" then it is not going to be heard by God.
What is grace?
Well, many whole books have been written about what grace is, but in this case I am talking about saving grace. I would say that is that certain gift from God that regenerates a man, infallibly causing him to come to faith, in the cases of those of the age of reason.
And why would you want to learn what to have faith in?
Because otherwise one's faith is blind, baseless, and pointless, since it is not in anything real. If I announced that I suddenly had true faith in a head of lettuce and you asked me why, I don't think you would be very impressed if I just told you there was no reason, since my true faith was blind and baseless.
FK: No, because what do you believe IN?
Love. Isn't grace unmerited love received from God? Through grace, we recognize God through love, not in some rumbling volcano or in a burning bush.
So if anyone loves anyone then you would call that person a true believer?
What is it that you confess? The law and the prophets. Why, the Bible tells us it's love. Well, then, describe what Love is.
I am unaware of where the Bible says to blindly confess generic love in "anything" for salvation. We confess our knowing faith in Christ. It is specific.
You said that God the Father judged the Son on the Cross. Your example (John 5) doesn' say antyhing about God the Father judging the Son. Judge Him for what?
Then perhaps it is no surprise that we have TOTALLY different ideas about satan and his nature. satan leading anyone toward Christ would be denying his own nature. But then I remember your talking about your ideas of a Jewish belief that satan really is a nice guy underneath it all, so maybe you have those ideas too?
FK: And since the Bible says that I couldn't have been leading myself (as there is no good in me to search for the one true God), and we eliminated satan, then all that leaves is Holy Spirit.
I don't see how you "eliminated satan." All you did was accept whatever was presented to you, and the Bible reminds us that what you see is not necessarily what you get.
Well, if you want to believe that satan leads people to Christ, then that is up to you. The Bible tells a different story:
Matt 12:26 : If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?
Mark 3:26 : And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.
But of course if satan is God's secret buddy, then none of these and other Biblical passages matter. Please just consider the lengths you have to go to in order to DENY that Holy Spirit leads the elect, and that we can be sure of it. IF it is your personal testimony that you can never be sure whether it is satan or God leading you, then perhaps that is something serious to think about.
Thanks for sharing that. I know what you mean; the deisire is therebe cause I do believe that all human beings are potentitally salvagable in this lifetime, and I can see myself praying to God for them to udnergo a change of heart, as be saved.
While this is going on I feel noting but love for God, all of my loved ones, everyone I've ever met, everyone I'll EVER meet, and this includes ALL my enemies (even separatist Albanians!
Not as they are. I do hope they find Christ and His love and forego Islam and their bandit culture. I can see myself including them oinly in that context but not as they are.
The strangest little things will set this state off in me. Sometimes just witnessing 2 strangers come together to make someone's life a little better will trigger this response in me
The goodness of God is in your heart and in your mind. Consider yourself blessed.
Follow, as in works? Or follow as in private interpretation of the message? Or follow literally? All three are "following" but all three are not necessarily orthodox.
Follow as in CORRECT interpretation. I have faith that the Apostles taught correctly and had correct interpretation. Therefore, following their teachings leads to a Bible-based faith. That is, if they meant what they said. If what they wrote was all in secret code that needed to be deciphered by a group of self-aggrandizing men many years later, then of course following the Bible as is would be a waste of time.
And whose interpretation is orthodox? Presbyterian, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, Unitarian, etc? They all claim theirs is the orthodox interpretation. But if they all believe in one and the same thing, then why have all those different denominations? Ego? Or theological differences? (the latter seems a lot more logical to me)
An orthodox interpretation VERY closely matches the collective and harmonious text and meaning of the totality of scriptures. Minor theological differences do not disqualify a faith from being a Bible-believing one. By no means is mine the only Bible-believing faith. However, there is a "line", and users of the term usually know it when we see it, that when crossed DOES disqualify a particular faith from being "Bible-believing". General claims are of no matter. It's the substance of the faith itself that matters.
FK: The difference is in the level of fidelity to the true scriptures. I freely admit that it is subjective.
Well that settles that issue, I guess. It's all subjective and not objective.
Well, remember that the only issue at hand here is "who is a Bible-believing Christian?" It is a man-made term so it will be subjective. I still find it to be a useful term.
You are close to admitting it, but you will resist (for a while at least) that the Church which was given the authority directly from Christ to bind and loosen also had the task of deciding which books constitute the scripture. And you accept their choices, more or less, but reject their authority. LOL!
I am not close to admitting anything of the sort. :) The Apostolic Church was never given anything like the powers that your "respective" hierarchies now claim for themselves in their claimed "respective" dominations over Christianity. Men do not now, and never have made decisions that only God can make. Therefore, I do not accept the choices of any men as to what is God's word. Only God can determine what is God's word, since it is HIS word. In the same way, I accept that the Fathers wrote what they wrote, because it was NOT God's word, but their own words. I accept that for what it is too. In those cases when their words parrot God's words, then I give thanks again to God.
Only those who believe the true message can be true Christians. But since it seems you are beginning to realize that the 'truth" in the message is in the mind of the beholder, it is impossible to determine who, and to what degree of fidelity, is anyone is a "true" Christian.
Yes, but we are not called upon to judge if anyone else is a "true Christian", so there is no need to determine it. That is only between that other person and God, just as it is with us. God established one Church of all believers, and by His design they populate many different faiths. This is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. In that way no one man or group of men can claim superiority over all other men. It's a humility thing, and it is what Jesus taught. I just don't see a lot of humility in those who think they have absolute power over the one and only true Christian faith.
***Yes, but we are not called upon to judge if anyone else is a “true Christian”, so there is no need to determine it. That is only between that other person and God, just as it is with us. ***
Amen. It is God that will sift the wheat from the chaff.
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