Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

[Manfred the Wonder Dawg]

January 25, 2008

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."

[kosta50]

Well, if you remember, MY personal stance has always been that satan has only ever MISquoted the Bible, and to a substantive degree

 

So, those who follow the Bible follow what was in the beginning and ARE orthodox

Follow, as in works? Or follow as in private interpretation of the message? Or follow literally? All three are "following" but all three are not necessarily orthodox.

It's just that their interpretation of it is so afoul of logic, reason, common sense, context, etc., that they cannot be considered Bible-believing.

And whose interpretation is orthodox? Presbyterian, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, Unitarian, etc? They all claim theirs is the orthodox  interpretation. But if they all believe in one and the same thing, then why have all those different denominations? Ego? Or theological differences? (the latter seems a lot more logical to me)

So, they all claim to believe in the Bible, but they all believe in their own man-made Bible.

Kosta: Which begs the question, what then makes the "Bible-believing" Christians different from other true Christians?

FK: The difference is in the level of fidelity to the true scriptures. I freely admit that it is subjective

 Well that settles that issue, I guess. It's all subjective and not objective. And who defines what "true" scriptures are? More subjective opinions?

You are close to admitting it, but you will resist (for a while at least) that the Church which was given the auhtority directly from Christ to bind and losen also had the task of deciding which books constitute the scripture. And you accept their choices, mor eor less, but reject their authority. LOL!

Well, I would agree with YOU that all true Christians must believe in the MESSAGE of the Bible. The hard part is in agreeing on what that message is.

 I am ecstatic that you agree with me but you really don't. Only those who believe the true message can be true Christians. But since it seems you are beginning to realize that the 'truth" in the message is in the mind of the beholder, it is impossible to determine who, and to what degree of fidelity, is anyone is a "true" Christian. That's why the Lord established One, Catholic and Apostolic  Church, so that we may not wonder all over the place with private interpretations, placing  them above those given directly to the Apostles and their successors. It was a wise idea !

Kosta: The Church derives its beliefs from Christ's oral teachings, which were later expressed as apostolic writings or scriptures (graqh [didn't copy]) of known and unknown authors that comprise the New Testament.

FK: Well, if that was the whole of it then that would be one thing. But since the Church uses many extra-scriptural writings for its beliefs AND puts them on the same level as Holy Scriptures, that is a big strike against being considered Bible-believing Christians. :)

The Apostles used the Septuagint , and quote Jesus quoting Septuagint, which contains all those books you call "extra-scriptural." Obviously they had no problems with that, and they never called those books "hidden" or anything less than the OT scripture. The Pharisees did. Now, why do you side with the enemies of Christ on this? So, I would say those who reject them are Bible-believeing alright, but Christians they can't be, because one cannot be a Christian and reject what the Apostles considered sacred writings and keep what they like.

[kosta50]

Any mercy or work performed without faith through Christ might qualify as human good, enduring a moment to perhaps even a couple of centuries, but at the Great White Throne Judgment will fail to qualify or comply to the standards of Divine righteousness.

Those who are ignorant of Christ by no fualt of their own are not guilty of rejecting Chirst. There is a difference.

That doesn't take away that all good comes from God, regardless if it is from a believer or not. There is no nsuch thing as "human good."

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

The MAIN problem I see in your examples is the confusion about "physical with physical" and "spiritual with spiritual". In Catholicism, it seems there is no distinction and that they are the same. Jesus says they are very different:

More Scripture on flesh v spirit:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. – John 3:6

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. – I Corinthians 15:50

God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. – John 4:24

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. – Romans 8:9-19

Physical nourishment v. Spiritual nourishment:

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. – Matthew 4:4

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

The language of the Spirit:

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. – I John 4:6

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. – I Corinthians 2:12-14

Every time I attend Mass with my Catholic family members, I am smitten by the strong emphasis on the physical. And that doesn’t surprise me because I imagine the Catholic Church had to use such devices to communicate to an illiterate world. The sculptures outside the church are first noticed, then the holy water basin, the stations of the Cross on the walls surrounding the assembly, the altar, the paintings above the altar, the other sculptures, the candles, the flowers, the music, the clothing, the mannerisms, the intonations, the uplifting, the kissing of the Scriptures and especially the Eucharist.

And we see some of these things in Protestant churches as well – music, flowers, mannerisms, clothing, intonations and the observance of the Lord’s Supper.

And we see similar things in the observance of the Sabbath by Jews and Torah observant Christians. The wine, the bread, the prayers, the candles, the intonations, etc.

Some Christians and Jews stand in awe of God when they hear or read the words of God, others in the presence of glorious scenes in nature, others when they hear beautiful music or a wonderful sermon or homily - and still others when they enter a particular house of worship or observe a particular work of art - and still others when they observe a particular ritual. God didn’t make us with a cookie cutter. The important part is to worship God, to love Him surpassingly above all else.

The only time I become concerned is when the Christian seems unaware of analogical knowledge - which is to say, the picture of a man is not the man – a sculpture of Christ on a Cross is not Christ on a Cross and so on. Such a one is probably still young in the faith and in need of further Spiritual nourishment.

To God be the glory!

[kosta50]

I missed to include the reply to your first statement about Satan misquoting the Scriptures. I am sure you wondered what happened...I also forgo to make a courtesy ping to the rest of the people onyour ping list. Apologies.

You wrote in 6677: Well, if you remember, MY personal stance has always been that satan has only ever MISquoted the Bible, and to a substantive degree

We have already mentioned Matthew attributing a quote to Jeremiah when it was really from Zachariah.

In Ephesians (4:8) Paul misquotes (intentionally?) Ps.68:18, which says: "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men." And Paul says gave .

In Romans 9:33 (on the left) he quotes from Isaiah 28:16 (on the right). Here are the two quotes:

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed [KJV] "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame  [NIV]

Therefore thus saith the L-rd GOD: Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a costly corner-stone of sure foundation; he that believeth shall not make haste [Tanakh, MT] Therefore thus says the Lord, even the Lord, "Behold, I lay for the foundations of Zion a costly stone, a choice cornerstone and precious, for its foundations; and he that believes on Him shall by no means be ashamed. {Septuagint, LXX]

I think the differences are quite telling.

In Romans 10:8 Paul changes the meaning to suit his gospel of faith alone and no works by misquoting Deut. 30:14

Rom 10:8	Deut 30:14
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; [KJV]	But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. [Tanakh, MT] The word is very near you, in your mouth, and in your heart, and in your hands, to do it.  [Septuagint, LXX]

This is something that I have been trying to bring to everyone's attention: Paul was preaching to Bereans in this case, where the rabbis would have caught his error, because they checked on him. He was preaching to ignorant Romans and Greeks who knew nothing of the Hebrew scriptures and couldn't read them. So, any of the authors could have misqouted anything they wanted in order to make a "sales pitch."  This is an example of how Paul manipulated the Torah of all parts of the Bible to make it "fit" his newly invented faith-alone theology.

 Matthew (13:35) does something very similar and takes the license to change (i.e. misquote) Psalm 78:2

Mat 13:35	Ps. 78:2
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world [KJV]	I will open my mouth with a parable; I will utter dark sayings concerning days of old.  That which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us. [Tanakh, v 2-3] I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter dark sayings which have been  from the beginning. All which we have heard and known, and our fathers have declared to us.  [Sedptuagint, v. 2-3

Clearly, by leaving out verse 3, Matthew creates a completely different meaning of the Psalm he (mis)quotes. He blends verse 2 and 3 into one intentional fabrication with a different menaing.

Of course we can always blame these on "scribal" errors, which is very possible, but nevertheless no less serious in misleading a private interpretation to conclude soemthing that was not in the original text. This, we cannot assume that the integrity of the original texts have been preserved without error.

[Forest Keeper]

Thank you so much, Mary, for all of your kind words and encouragements. I really appreciate them. :)

[Forest Keeper]

Others [prophecies] were "fulfilled" depending on how you interpret and which version of the Bible you use, etc. I could list, and list and list and take up tremendous band width with examples. If you wish, I will be happy to. It's up to you.

It's OK. I think I can remember some of your prior comments on selected prophecies. But thanks for the offer.

FK: Obviously, men for many hundreds of years have been trying to show that [Christianity is false], but they have all failed, haven't they, since Christianity is still going strong?

What a naïve statement, imo. Christianity has opposed Islam with "truth" which is so plain and perspicuous in the Bible /sar/, for centuries and failed!

Why do you say failed? The truth has been proved true. It is immaterial (and Biblical) that many will not accept the truth. It is no failure of Christianity that there are so many Muslims. That is part of God's plan. Most will perish, as the Bible says. God does not lead Christianity so that all will be saved.

[Forest Keeper]

No politician will say "I will raise your taxes, because such is the reality" and expect people to vote for him.

Well, not since Mondale anyway. :)

[Forest Keeper]

FK: I know that's just my testimony so it doesn't count as "proof" for you, but I'd bet anything that a lot of other Christians would say something very similar.

Lots of people have seen and even recorded the Loch Nest Monster and the UFO, FK. The lots-of-pople-do-it-so-they must-be-right approach is not a certificate of authenticity. Just because multitudes approve of something doesn't make it right.

But, isn't that EXACTLY how the Orthodox Church authenticates a teaching? That is, you see if the laity accepts it? Now, I do not believe that gang acceptance necessarily equals truth either, it is just one thing to look at. But I am surprised that you would throw it out when I think your Church RELIES on it so much, at least much more than we do.

[Forest Keeper]

If, according to the Bible, hundreds of thousands of Hebrews lived in Egypt for 460 years and there is no trace of them archaeologically, it is difficult to say archeology is wrong and the Bible is right.

Archeology doesn't have to be wrong here for the Bible to be right. All archeology can say is that nothing has been found. That proves NOTHING other than they haven't found anything YET. It doesn't mean they will and it doesn't mean they won't. It is intellectual error to conclude that the Jews were never there because they haven't found anything yet. You have to know that.

You can deny it, but until such time as something is found we just have to assume that Exodus did not happen because evidence shows that it didn't.

Again, you are improperly using lack of evidence one way or the other as evidence. If my client was not at Wrigley Field on Saturday that does NOT prove that he was two blocks away committing the murder. Only someone with an agenda could use the reasoning you are talking about. Therefore, when you say that you are not trying to discredit the Bible, I have a real difficulty with your statement.

Ze'ev Herzong, Director of the Institute of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University writes ("Deconstructing Walls of Jericho," Oct. 1999)

"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. … the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort [Aserah, and] the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai."

And THIS is what you use to bolster your point??? Good Grief!!! Do you really believe that God's consort is Aserah? Why would you quote a certifiable LOON approvingly?

But we do know from other sources of learning, such as biblical criticism, that the bulk of the books of Exodus was composed from four different sources, and over a long period, each contributing different aspects of it. The largest revisions and additions to the book were made c. 400 BC, so we are talking a period of about 1,000 years.

These sources or scholars sound like they have the same integrity as Al Gore's with his proved facts that man has caused global warming. With the starting point being man himself, then scientists and scholars will come up with whatever is necessary to discredit God. God threatens man's sovereignty so He must be put down.

[Cvengr]

"There is no such thing as "human good.""

Sure there is. Freemasonry is an outstanding example of human good. Without faith through Christ, though it fails to qualify for eternal recognition as Divine good.

[enat]

“You can deny it, but until such time as something is found we just have to assume that Exodus did not happen because evidence shows that it didn’t”

I found it; God said it was true.

Jhn 3:14 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up”

[Forest Keeper]

FK: Sure one can be honest and sincere and be wrong. However, look at what the Biblical authors taught. They didn't teach murder, etc., as the jihadists do.

Dear Lord! Have you read the Bible?!? You must be joking, FK! :) Time simply doesn't permit me to list all of them.

You are confusing specific missions ordained by God of specific people with general instructions to followers. No where does God tell believers in general to wantonly go out and murder unbelievers at will. The jihadists believe their holy book says to do just that. Day and night.

[Forest Keeper]

So, what Christians believe or agree with is the absolute rule?

No, what the Bible SAYS is the absolute rule. Christians are all over the map in their recognitions of "the rules".

I have found that if you dig deep enough every Christian disagrees with another Christian while on the surface pretending to be of the same and equal faith.

Sure, that is to be expected. The Holy Spirit leads all of us at an individual pace, based on God's individual plan for each of us. Today I would have disagreed with my own self from five years ago on some things, even though I was saved then. That's not bad, it's GOOD. It means that I am being sanctified.

We are not talking about the faith, FK, we are talking about the Bible. Two different things. One can believe in God and give thanks to God without quoting or even knowing the Bible!

I would never recommend that because barring a special situation that God arranged the person could not possibly know to whom he was giving thanks. It would be blind thanks to no one in particular.

As for the views of those who call it the way it is, whether atheist or not, you use the same failed argument as before: they didn't change "true believers." No, there were "true" (I would say fanatical) believers who fought to the last moment in the Reichstag defending Hitler. Does their tenacity prove them "right?"

I don't mean "true believers" in the sense of how successful they are in convincing me or you or anyone else of their belief. I mean objective true believers, known to God. To the Apostolic, apparently all it takes to be a true believer is a hearty "me too". That certainly solves many scriptural problems that your side has. But you are forced to accept that for you "true faith" is really a meaningless concept. ...... I have no idea why you think a true belief in something false is somehow relevant to a true belief in what is eternally true. God is the true difference. You appear to say that one is just as reasonable as the other.

[kosta50]

Freemasonry is an outstanding example of human good

I don't share your rosy picture of Freemasons, but that's irrelevant. The Church always taught that all that is good came from God.

[Quix]

RC’s certainly used to rule the roost around here much more than now.

And they’ve been fussing endlessly and uproariously about it 24/7 ever since things became more balanced, fair-minded etc.

Beliefs are not personal assaults.

RC’s have been saying things just that horrendous about Prottys 24/7 from the beginning of FR and still do.

They want a double standard. They are relentlessly fussing that their double standard has been adjusted toward a fair-er standard. They seem quite unused to and intolerant of a level playing field.

Bashing The Roman Catholic Church has come to mean anything a Protty says about the RCC that an RC finds annoying or the least bit objectionable for whatever thin-skinned reason.

Sometimes the RC’s evidently find some mods or even manage to get Jim to sympathize with that perspective.

Most of the time, Jim and others are more solid in their respect for and insistence on a more level playing field.

All the wailing, ranting and dust throwing on the part of the RC’s is, to discerning Prottys, yet more proof that UNBIBLICAL sacred cows have been gored—as is the only proper thing to do with a “Christian’s” sacred cows.

I personally don’t find any of the recent Popes near such a label.

Reportedly, Roman Catholic Seers insist that the next Pope will be well within such a category. THAT’S YOUR FOLKS, saying such.

Personally, as long as folks refrained from personal attacks of other FREEPERS, I think they ought to be free to say anything remotely clean of foul language about anyone’s beliefs and about non-FREEPERS.

But y’all can’t even manage that. I’m the brunt of personal attacks virtually 24/7—exclusively by rabid RC’s who can’t imagine that THEY ought to live within the rules.

I think you really do not appreciate 1/25th as significant as it is to Prottys—how horrendous a LOT of the RC statements are to Protty sensibilities.

But you also demonstrate as a group that RC’s do not the blazes care. THEY see themselves as GOD’S ONLY authentic assessor of reality and Prottys can jolly well take whatever the RC’s dish out and be jolly well thankful the Inquisition isn’t operating now or certain of the Prottys would have been placed on the rack months if not years ago and still be there.

Prottys are not about to roll over and play dead to humor the sensibilities of the RC’s.

It is our God given duty to defend Biblical truth as much from our perspective as y’all see it similarly from yours.

Political power-mongering may be !!!!TRADITIONAL!!!! and full of finely honed habitual skills in the RC camp . . . but such does not impress Prottys.

EVEN WHEN RC’s manage to get the FR hierarchy throwing banning lightening bolts at Prottys . . . sooner or later one reaps what one sows.

Sooner or later . . . GOD ALMIGHTY will settle accounts.

And there will be no appealing to a clique of favorite mods or even to Jim.

A lot of RC doctrine is worse than silly—it is horrificly heretical and damningly idolatrous and blasphemous. That’s just the facts. Doesn’t matter what political moves one gets backing up one’s responses to that. Facts are still facts.

And Prottys’ sets of facts have AT LEAST as much justification as RC’s sets of facts and we think far more.

Most Prottys think of the rabid intensely pontificating RC’s as incredibly thin-skinned and super immature—reminding us more of 2 year olds because of their emotional outburss and thin-skinned wailing, whining and dust throwing.

So, no, I don’t think FR is a branch of the Vatican regardless of how often one gets a clique of mods or even Jim to sympathize with a given round of RC thin-skinned wailing. Nor should it ever be such a Vatican branch.

It’s already far too much that way, to my construction on reality anyway. Y’all have wailing and whining and dust throwing down to such an art, it can be very effective.

Kind of reminds me of the commie leftist demonstrators so skillful at getting conservatives in trouble with the police.

However, the Protty side of things is not at all impressed with such tactics regardless of how effective they can too often be.

The mature thing would be to take one’s lumps as they come and respond with rational argument or AUTHENTIC historical evidence instead of all the routine hogwash so frequently proffered by the rabid RC’s.

But RC’s hereon are addicted to a horrific DOUBLE STANDARD so most of us Prottys don’t expect much fairness nor rational discourse from them.

[Alex Murphy]

Now, if Catholics start believing in TULIP’s, carrying “The Institutes,” and have a bobble-head Calvin on the dash of their cars.... (Its not like we don’t convert Catholics to the truth of Calvinism all the time.)

I haven't got one on my dashboard....yet....

[Forest Keeper]

Am I to assume that, unlike some of us, you follow God's commandments (and we don't)?

No, I did not imply that. My point was that I think Apostolics spend WAY too much time focusing on "other than God", rather than on God. To this day I do not understand the thinking that says that devotion to another somehow glorifies God. Why not just have devotion to God? Isn't the Bible absolutely clear that God does NOT WANT us to have devotion to any but Him? Does your interpretation of scripture tell you to devote yourself to Mary or other Saints, etc.?

Religious pride (which is still pride) is alive and well, FK. At times it seems it has never been better, especially after the Reformation.

Naturally, we see that religious pride predominates in the faith that glorifies men when it is proper to glorify God. Your side accuses us of pride for not following MEN. That is ridiculous. :) We give ALL glory to God, and you accuse US of pride??? It is your side that glorifies men at the expense of God. That is what I call pride.

[Quix]

Naturally, we see that religious pride predominates in the faith that glorifies men when it is proper to glorify God. Your side accuses us of pride for not following MEN. That is ridiculous. :) We give ALL glory to God, and you accuse US of pride??? It is your side that glorifies men at the expense of God. That is what I call pride.

= =

INDEED.

[kosta50]

No where does God tell believers in general to wantonly go out and murder unbelievers at will. The jihadists believe their holy book says to do just that. Day and night

Islam teaches that it is the Muslim's duty to convert others the way Evangelicals believe it is their duty to evangelize everyone (according to the Great Commission which was specifically addressed to the Apostles, and by extension, their successors of their choice).

Historically, Islam has tolerated the "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians), although as second-class citizens. Islam mercilessly exterminated any other (non-biblical) religious sect and cult

Examples...among hundreds others:

In their conquest, they would offer defeated Christian kings and nobility a chance to convert and be saved. Otherwise they were beheaded. Muslims are particularly sensitive to what they perceive as "Crusaders" for whom they have little tolerance.

When it comes to killing the infidels, the Muslims, like the Jews and the Evangelical Christians, believe that they are doing "God's" work and don't see it as crime but as "justified" killing. This should sound familiar to your side when it comes to biblical atrocities "ordained" by God.

Neither side "wantonly" murders; atrocities are "justified" as "God's" "plan" and the purpose of which is all for His glory. Thus the slaughter of Canaanite infants and even live stock is seen as "pleasing" to God.

Every religion "justifies" its crimes the same way. Whether it is killing for Christ, for Yahweh/Eli or Allah, murder and even outright genocide are twisted into "holy" work of God through his human intermediaries.

I would say that the Koran equals or even pales when it comes to the cruelty of Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus. To me they are all the same.

whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death [Ex 31:15]

And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them [Dt. 7:16]

And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword [Josh. 6:21]

Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil [Koran, Women 4:76]

[the children of a delicate woman] that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them. [Dt. 28:57]

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up [Hos 13:16]

They all read the same. Senseless cruelty; that's all.

There is no Christ in any of these.

[Cvengr]

"They all read the same. Senseless cruelty; that's all. There is no Christ in any of these."

My dear Kosta, how little you know our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. Be certain He shall not always remain full of grace and mercy in the face of unrighteousness. All judgment is turned over to Him. He and He alone will qualify to open the seals. Just as God the Father judged the Son on the Cross, so to shall the Son judge all unrighteousness brought before Him.

All of human history is His Story. When God commanded the slaughter of His enemies, that was All Christ, the second person of the Godhead, determined by the Father and when implemented through faith in Him, performed by the Holy Spirit to glorify the Son.