Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
That's right, FK, speechless is a good word. Because love doesn't speak; it feels. As to the rest of your comment, the answer is yes, and not only ME but YOU and ALL others in this world, because we are all sinners and we all fail God and we all love and worship God imperfectly and to the best of our abilities.
So, yes, we all make "filled with Spirit" as it refers to US, individually.
The Gospels are subject to errors too, FK. First, they were written by human beings years after the event, by memory. Second, half of the Gospel writers never witnessed Christ, but are borrowing narratives form those who have, writing down their memories. In fact, St. Justin Martyr (150 AD) refers to the Gospels as "Apostolic Memoirs." Does that tell you something?
Third, the Gospels differ in fine details, in numerology, and in sequence of events. Fourth, the original Gospels are lost; all we have are copies of copies by various scribes in dozens of versions, and hundreds of years after the originals. Fourth, we don't have a complete set of early manuscripts, but shreds with half a dozen verses here and there, by various authors and scribes, full of transcriptional errors, incomplete words, missing sentences, etc.
Sixth, the current version of the Gospels we use are based on the Byzantine-type text, dating back to the 5th century, 500 years after Christ died, which has been haevily redacted and edited to make it "smoother." That text is the basis for the Textus Receptus and ultimately just about all English language Bibles.
Now, as to why do I accept Christ's proclamations? Because I believe in them! I believe the Christian message of the Bible. I believe the moral message of the Gospels. I am convicted that if the world acted according to what the Gospels teach this world would be a much better place.
It is much better for people to love than to hate each other. That is an eternal truth that holds in China and in Iraq and in America, and will be true unto ages and ages.
I don't believe in books or golden calves, FK. I believe in the idea that the Gospels bring.
Kosta: Certainly that is true of anything. "Be merciful" can be ignored.
FK: Not really, since the point is whether the historicity is correct or not
There is no historicity in Truth, FK. Truth is transcendent. Historicity does not determine the truth.
If it IS accepted as correct, then there is much less wiggle room spin-wise. But if it is rejected, then anything goes. There is the danger of rejecting the history that God gave us, anyone can make up anything, and who's to say it's any less credible than the myth of the Bible?
That's because some people put their faith and "truth" into a golden calf or a book (bibilos), and as such it must be considered "perfect" no matter what or else the truth will evaporate from them. But if you believe in the idea, then historicity is irrelevant. If we believe that happiness trumps sadness, then historicity and geography and chronological order have no meaning whatsoever.
I would apply that meaning to a dog on some things. If your definition of "understanding" is only in human terms, then you obviously think that only humans can have understanding. My comparison has to do with "to the best of ability given the creation". It sounds like you are saying we cannot understand anything of God because we ARE NOT God. In the same way you appear to be saying that dogs can't understand anything because they are not humans. I disagree with this approach. Why is it so impossible for humans, created in God's image, to have SOME understanding that is REALLY TRUE, although it is not exhaustive understanding? I still don't know why some appear to "need" the all or nothing paradigm. There shouldn't be anything forcing it.
To "learn" involves acquiring a skill.
Huh? I thought learning involved acquiring knowledge, if not also wisdom. When I first came across you on FR I learned your screen name. What skill did I acquire that I didn't have before?
FK: And just from personal experience our dog treats every individual family member differently, based on his perceived station for us. I am the "king", etc. That HAS to involve some understanding.
And ants know who the queen is, FK, but I doubt they "understand" why.
Not the same thing at all. My dog knows I'm the king BECAUSE I am the biggest, the strongest, my voice is the most commanding, and I play with him the roughest. He bites me (playfully) MUCH harder than he does my daughter because he knows. He has SOME understanding, although it is not exhaustive. In fact, his understanding is really all he needs to be a beloved pet in our household. As God ordained it. Likewise, our understanding is all we need to be beloved children of God. As God ordained it.
In truth, we are MUCH MUCH MUCH closer to knowing God than our pets are to knowing us. Our pets were not created in the image of humans.
Yes, we have been given a blessing, and a subject to love.
No, if anything you are the giver (of your love)
Love gives, but you must love first in order to give out of love. Giving is merely an external manifestation of your love, and not the love itself.
So, the Bible can't mean that you just start loving the Spirit. It's much more than that. Jesus said He will SEND. That is something from Him TO us. The language used is not metaphorical
It most certainly is metaphorical. God doesn't send Himself! The Spirit is neither subjected to the Son, nor inferior to Him or the Father. That which the Father and the Son will, so does the Spirit, and where the Spirit is so is Father and the Son. Otherwise, God can be de-constructed into "elements."
Besides, never mind the metaphorics, everyone who is baptized receives the Spirit, but not all love Him. Parents may shower their children with gifts of love and never expect anything in return and some children just may just never give that love back.
I take it then, that you believe your eternal reward will BE deserved based on your free will actions?
In order to even get onto the Way, we must receive the Spirit. What happens after that? Let’s look at the words of Jesus:
Matt 25:
31
14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
May God bless you Mark. It is clear, as it is in the Beatitudes and everything esle Jesus says in the Gospels, that what we do matters to God even though He died for all our sins.
Jesus preached works-based salvation. The NT preaches works-based salvation. It states in no uncertain terms that we will be judged for our deeds. And Matthew 25 tells us what that Judgment will be.
But the Reformed will tell you that Paul says otherwise. Does Paul trump Christ?
Christ is our image of God as we see Him, and as—we believe—God wants us to see Him. What makes us Christian is that we follow Christ as our standard of truth and life that leads to the invisible and incomprehensible Father whose essence is the same as that of Christ or the Spirit.
So, in essence, they are one and the same God. God the Father appear as something other than Chirst, or the Holy Spirit, and Christ cannot be anything other than like the Father or the His Spirit.
Anyone who calls Christ a "truncated" God (as if the wholeness of Divinity were not in Him, as if Chirst lacked perfection!) cannot, by defintion claim to be a Christian.
The correct standard is the totality of scriptures, which reveal three distinct Persons.
But there is hypostatic union only in one Person of God, the only one who could be seen and grasped, imitated and followed.
The Jews have a different image of a God, based on their "visions," and what not, which contains notions of Christ, but dimly. Look at what Jeremiah (32:40) has to say about God:
The OT God keeps the Jews to Himself, not by love, but by fear! Is that what Christ teaches His disciples?
I guess when Jeremiah wrote this, the changing of the hearts wasn't "in" yet. God had to resort to fear to keep His people in line. LOL!
***May God bless you Mark.***
He has and in more ways than I could possibly relate. One particular blessing is the opportunity to participate here on the RF and learn great religious lessons at the feet of my theological betters.
***It is clear, as it is in the Beatitudes and everything esle Jesus says in the Gospels, that what we do matters to God even though He died for all our sins. ***
Jesus laid it all out how people were to behave and why before He even revealed the upcoming Passion. The time after the Resurrection were mostly spent in instructing the Apostles and preparing them for Pentecost.
***Jesus preached works-based salvation. The NT preaches works-based salvation. It states in no uncertain terms that we will be judged for our deeds. And Matthew 25 tells us what that Judgment will be.***
Where our Reformed brethren don’t get it is that they claim that we work our own way into Heaven. As I posted previously, we must have God’s Grace to even get onto the Way. Without that, we have no possibility of salvation.
***But the Reformed will tell you that Paul says otherwise. Does Paul trump Christ?***
No, but as one delves further and further into Pauline verse, one may understand more deeply that Paul does what he does in order to cudgel the heretic churches into order. He had the toughest of the bunch to start out with - they were not Jews and didn’t think like Jews or have the basic understandings of Jews. They were pagan and had to have themselves corrected, sometimes rather seriously.
Paul really doesn’t contradict Jesus or Peter or James. The Church is plain - they are all Scripture and must all be accomodated. They are all correct, from a theological point of view.
Yes, that goes for all of us.
Where our Reformed brethren don’t get it is that they claim that we work our own way into Heaven. As I posted previously, we must have God’s Grace to even get onto the Way. Without that, we have no possibility of salvation
Yes, of course. Grace is the new life that was given as a gift from God to all who are baptized. What we do with that life becomes our responsability.
By no means are we assured our salvation. We can all fall away. Jesus makes it very clear that there are those who “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). The Protestant argument that they never believed contradicts Christ.
Christ's sacrifice on the Cross makde that gift (of freedom) to all mankind: "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men" (Rom 5:18)
Paul really doesn’t contradict Jesus or Peter or James. The Church is plain - they are all Scripture and must all be accomodated. They are all correct, from a theological point of view
I realize that the Church must accommodate a lot of things. Part of the problem with that is that it is almost impossible to do so (especially with the OT), and I have not to this date read anything that does.
I mean you have Paul in Romans say that Christ justified all men and in other places he talks of the elect before the foundations of the world!
FK: That just can't be right, or Jesus would not have said what He said about John. Yes, their styles were very different, but the message was essentially the same
That's news. Josephus (1st century) writes about John as being perceived as a rebel rouser and associates his beheading with the fear form Herod that he would start a rebellion.
Jesus never called for a rebellion. Nor did He preach angrily as John the Forerunner did.
If John's message was opposite to that of Jesus, then it could not "have fulfilled all righteousness" for John to baptize Him
Why did baptizing Jesus "fulfill all the righteousness?" Christ did not need to be baptized nor was He any more just after that.
Jesus calls him MORE than a prophet (Matt. 11:9)
What would that make him then? What is above a prophet if a prophet is a human being with whom God communicates and reveals His truths?
Yes, obviously many things in the Bible are not true. If the Bible perfect? It contains eternal truths, but it doesn't mean everything in it is eternal truth.
Some Patristic writings are obviously not correct. St. Gregory of Nyssa taught universal salvation while he was under Origen's influence. Blessed Augustine wrote His famous Retractions before he died.
Majority of Patristic writings deal with eternal truths that trascend age and geography and in that sense they only reflect the truths of the Bible.
Would it be moral in a Christian sense for a country to defend itself if attacked? That would involve neither love nor mercy (if done right).
According to the earliest Church, no. Under no circumstances was a Christian to bear arms. Those who served in the Roman army were told to leave the army.
I never said the Church hierarchy was free from corruption. That would be silly. We are all sinners. If you are asking when did the Churhc begin to teach the orthodox and catholoic faith, the answer is: at the Pentecost, in 33 AD. :)
I don't think the Bible says it went down that way. For one thing Pilate DID find Jesus guilty of "something":
Luke 23:22 : 22 For the third time he spoke to them: "Why? What crime has this man committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty. Therefore I will have him punished and then release him."
For another thing, it wasn't the Jews who carried out the crucifixion, as that quote says they did, it WAS in fact the Romans. The Romans did the flogging, Romans tortured Him with the thorns, and Romans hammered the nails and lifted Him up. They were professionals at this. The Jews never crucified anybody. So, while Pilate did not personally think Jesus warranted the death penalty, he agreed to find Him "guilty" and execute the death penalty for political reasons.
Finally, He never would have been brought before Pilate in the first place if Jesus was not found guilty by the council headed by Caiaphas. My point was only that Jesus couldn't have legitimately been found guilty of anything, since He WASN'T guilty of anything. :)
Double-speak, FK. If being saved is guaranteed, then temporal concepts do not matter. The Bible, however, makes it clear, that temporal salvation is not just another concept, but something that will happen to those repentant souls who await Him until the end.
I'm afraid I don't follow any of your logic here. If I guarantee you today that I will cut your grass tomorrow, then don't I still have to actually come over tomorrow and do it? It's the same with the different uses of "saved". ALL are guaranteed for the elect. There could never be three without the fourth.
How can you fall away from something you were never there to fall away from? Get real. The Bible speaks of falling away by those who were there.
You can't. That's part of my point. One CAN though fall away in one's own mind from something he THINKS he's a part of but really isn't. It's not truly real, but it is real to the person who is under false pretenses. That's what the Bible is talking about, a person fooling himself.
The Bible tells us that we can't serve God and Mammon. Clearly it is a choice we make, and as long as we live on this earth we can make choices. God doesn't make that choice for us.
Then your hope should be in your choices, and mine will be in my God and His promises. I sleep real good at nights. :)
How can someone who believes in Christ and loves God go "postal" and kill a dozen former co-workers? And, I want to stress this, anyone can be driven to violence. Anyone can give in to evil.
Sure anyone can do evil. We still do. The thing that isn't possible is for a saved person to do enough evil such that he loses his salvation. God promises that cannot happen.
If you are predestined to be saved, then there is nothing that will change that. That's a "free ride."
It's only a free ride if salvation is otherwise earned. The Bible, and the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, says that true believers WILL produce good fruit by doing good works and following God's laws. The first cause just isn't us, it's God.
I am misunderstanding Luther? LOL! How can anyone sin boldly and believe? Those who love God cannot sin boldly. They will sin, unintentionally, but they will not do so forthright.
As I was saying ........... :)
FK: My original comment and your response both mentioned the regenerate man not wanting to sin like he used to, instead his general disposition would be one of wanting to please God.
And how does that "fit" into Luther's pecca fortier formula?!? Sinning boldly and wanting to "please" God is an oxymoron, FK.
All it takes is a basic understanding of the context. Once again here is the famous paragraph:
As you can see, Luther's point was in highlighting the value of what Christ did for us. He and I disagree with those whose beliefs hold that Christ did comparatively little. "[B]elieve and rejoice in Christ even more boldly" means wanting to please God.
Where does Christ speak of "salvational grace?" Get real.
Aside from 2 Cor. 12:9 where does Jesus EVER speak of any kind of grace, by name? That doesn't mean the principle isn't clearly laid out in scripture. Do you say you do not believe in saving grace? I wouldn't argue with you if you said you didn't. Saving grace doesn't match Apostolic theology, since in that theology there is a premium on the works and decisions of the person. The mover and shaker of a man's salvation is the man himself, with some help from God of course.
Mark: If Adam and Eve could fall from grace, surely we can fall from grace as well.
FK: Apples and oranges. You can't compare when the starting positions were so opposite.
Kosta: What? If man, who knew no evil and had it all, could fall from grace, certainly the wounded nature we all have can do the same a lot easier.
It isn't the same. In the way the term is used today, "falling from grace" usually means to lose one's salvation. Adam technically wasn't "saved" before he sinned, so we cannot compare what Adam did to a saved sinner losing what Christ's gift was. Adam had no need of Christ's gift UNTIL he sinned. The comparison doesn't hold since Adam was in a totally unique situation, never since repeated.
FK, the satanic part is to convince people that God wished evil because that's the best God could come up with.
And is this as opposed to something better that you think YOU came up with??? :) The grievous error is by those who accuse God of being SO WEAK that evil was thrust upon Him, beyond His control. Here we go again, God is only human.
FK: If satan never existed then it is a certainty that each of us would have a much different personal relationship with God than each of us does now, right?
Oh horrors, imagine, no flood, no blood, no guts, no suffering, no repentance, no crucifixion, no cruelty, no killings of the firstborn...
And also, no need. No true appreciation as we saw with Adam and Eve. It goes both ways.
OK, thanks for being straightforward about it. I will definitely give you that. :)
Well, then if NONE of the original authors is trustworthy, then how can you rely on authors that followed and commented on them? How do you know THEY knew which parts of the Bible were true when you are telling me that the original authors didn't even know?
Yeah, well that whole section makes no sense. Why would Christ come to divide a son from his father?
Apparently, Matthew is using this rather strange approach to tell us in verse 38 that "whoever doesn't pick up the cross and follow" Christ "is not worthy of" Christ, suggesting we walk the way Chriust walked and do what He did.
The only problem with this supposed Jesus quote is that Christ would not have been crucified yet!, so what cross is He talking about?!?
Obviosuly, Matthew is writing after the fact and is making up a quote which Jesus would not have said (because it would have been before crucifixion) to make a point on something that doesn't make much sense (i.e. Christ did not come to bring peace!?!).
There is something seriously out of touch with the rest of the Gospel in this particular one.
But one thing is clear: the rest of that section (verses 40 onward) is all about the rewards being works-based.
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