Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
If that is the case, then one could say that when we are born, none of us needs Christ or any faith in Him, since we are already saved. Doesn't that logically follow? I mean, I see what you are saying, and under the Reformed view of predestination your statement "could" be seen as correct. However, that leaves a ton of explaining to do as to what God does through time, such as what I asked above. Therefore, we don't frame it that way.
God's predestination IS a LOCK, and included in that lock are the things that happen during life such as the giving of grace and faith, and perseverance. This assumes that God is sovereign and His promises are good. So, it would be complete error for anyone to argue that if the predestined are "saved" when born that they do not need Christ or faith. Those certainties within time are included with the predestination.
Therefore, for these reasons, even given the way you framed it, in a normal conversation we will say that all are born lost and need to come to faith, EVEN THOUGH it is a lock for the elect. I believe that is the best way to frame it especially when talking with people of other faiths, or lost people in general. As far as we know, all people start out equally lost since none of us knows who the elect are.
Goodness, I hope you get that condition under control and stay awya form irritants. Good to see you back.
Your issue is with Jesus's own words.
That should be Jesus’ not Jesus’s.
No argument there. However, we are expected to do something with our talents. In the end we will be judged accoridng to what we did with them, and not what we believed.
Do you figure all men "hunger for righteousness?"
No.
"Options" on "how a man is saved???"
Lots of them! :)
****Your issue is with Jesus’s own words.****
No, my issue is with personal interpretations that deny faith as the basis of salvation.
Your issue is with the entirety of the Bible. The Bible is more than the beatitudes, much more. And they ALL flow together.
Well, from memory I had the impression that actual Orthodox dogma was pretty much limited to the very basics "plus Mariology". :) I am including doctrine and discipline, if those are the correct terms in Orthodoxy. I am asserting that when those too appear to defy a "mountain" of scripture that the scripture is made to fit what man has created after the Apostolic era.
FK, surely you don’t believe that the Bible is some sort of self defining, self authenticating, self created “something” which presides over mankind?
I believe it is God's Holy word. I think chapter 1 of the Westminster Confession says it pretty well. In part:
VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.[12] Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:[13] ......
While the Bible is self-authenticating, it is not self-created. It is God-breathed through God's chosen scribes. With God's approval, those scribes expressed themselves using their own personalities, and first intended audiences.
That’s what Mohammedans believe about the Koran, FK.
I don't understand the logic. If the Muslims say that the Koran is "Allah-breathed" does that mean the Bible can't be God-breathed? The Koran says that Jesus existed. Does that mean that the Bible is wrong for saying the same thing?
Our salvation is from The Word Who became Flesh, not the word a bunch of Greek bishops put together 1700 years ago.
While our salvation is certainly from the Word Who became Flesh, the word that God revealed and gave to His Church is a main tool God uses to grow faith. Faith doesn't mean anything unless it is "in" something. God's word provides that answer. The Word and the word are inextricably tied together, and both are supernatural.
I answered the question after you posted here. What makes you think that sinning after salvation has anything to do with breaking God's seal? It doesn't. Even though there is sin from time to time, the SEAL of the Holy Spirit, and thereby salvation is not broken. God does not seal us against ever sinning again. The Bible does not claim that. The seal is of salvation.
FK: "This is a good description of someone who lives under the Law and not under grace."
The Beatitudes are in the NT, so your statement is nonsense. It is just that the Beatitudes clash with Paul's innovations (which were necessary to spread Judaism to Gentiles), so you reject them or ignore them.
You are the one advocating that one is saved by living up to the Beatitudes. That is a works-dominant salvation model. That is by definition living under the Law. If we put your posts together we have on the one hand that the Beatitudes are the road map to salvation, and ALSO that there is no faith mentioned in them. I can only conclude that for you faith is unnecessary to salvation in a GENERAL sense, that is, not bringing in special situations like abortion victims. Therefore, I currently understand you to think that as long as anyone lives a good enough life (and is baptized) he will be saved. Having true faith would be like a bonus or something.
The Beatitudes are a wonderful part of scripture and describe generally what a Christian looks like after he has been saved.
This is another fine example where the Reformed choose Paul over Jesus' own words.
The Reformed understand that Jesus and Paul do not contradict each other. Jesus taught Paul LITERALLY everything he wrote. The Bible is one unified revelation by God. You cannot possibly think anything like that.
If you think about it, why did God give the Law if it was supposed to be discarded?
Jesus made clear that the Law was NOT to be discarded. As for its purpose, the Bible tells us:
Rom 3:19-20 : 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Rom 7:7 : What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
Gal 3:24 : So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
So, among other things, the law was meant to teach us that we CANNOT get to God by following it of our own merits. It was meant to lead us to Christ in faith.
But was there any other way to bring the Gentiles to accept this new form of Judaism? He had to cater to the "customers," if you think about it, and was many things to many different groups.
God had to cater to His customers. Astounding. :) But, this is right in line with Apostolic thinking as I understand it. Autonomous man is the customer and the customer is always right, so God had to bob and weave to come up with a marketing strategy to get anyone to follow Him. I guess for the time being that would put God ahead in the ratings, but Allah has been making some inroads over the last few years. God shouldn't be complacent in the free market. :)
I have repeatedly asked the Reformed to stop quoting Paul to make their point, and they can't because without Paul Protestantism would be dead.
I know you have, but on some issues, Paul is the most authoritative and clear source I have. I would also like to note for the lurkers that here we have one Christian asking another Christian not to quote the Bible to him. God's word is Holy to me, and I cannot refuse to speak it.
It [Protestantism, presumably Reformed] is a Paulian cult and I know this irritates a lot of people, but in order to "prove" their point they either depend on the OT or Paul, with the Gospels' eyewitness message relegated to a distant third place.
Again, you have the Bible in quite a turmoil, disagreeing with itself and in conflict all over the place. You argue that sides must be chosen among the competing books. So, you appear to have chosen the Gospels (although you also say that even these conflict with each other) as the one thing we can hold anchor to.
You call those who follow what Paul taught a cult. Again to lurkers, we have one Christian saying to another Christian that he is a cultist because he believes what Paul taught in the Bible is true.
We don't see it that way at all. We see the Bible as one harmonious revelation from God to His children. And, BTW, Paul plus the OT makes up well more than 90% of the Bible and you are criticizing us for quoting it as authoritative? That is very telling. I suppose we only have the men of your church to blame. After all, your side claims that you gave us the Bible we quote from.
And for you to claim that your heart is pure is like saying you don't sin. How prideful is that?!
Not at all, I answered as God sees me after Christ justified me.
FK: "Everyone knows that man is autonomous and self-determined."
More distortions.
You just told me in another post that men come to God "on their own". If that isn't autonomous I don't know what is. I never said anything about how man got to be autonomous under what I think your beliefs are. I would assume you would say that God made man autonomous and not dependent on Him, and that man has the inner goodness of his independent being to come to God on his own. God just watches His glorious creation do whatever it wants and however it turns out is just fine with Him. I would assume that you think that is required in order for man to be free.
We believe God LOVES much more than that. We believe God's love trumps man's freedom.
No New Testament until the death of the Testator — the Cross.
Matthew, until the Crucifixion, is still entirely on Old Testament ground. The Beatitudes (Matthew ch. 5) are all based in Old Testament Scriptures, the Psalms having very direct counterparts. Matthew 23 contains Christ’s admonition to His disciples to continue under the Law of Moses.
In every edition of the Bible in my home and office, just like yours, there is a page between Malachi and Matthew that says, “NEW TESTAMENT.” But this page does not change the doctrine from OT to NT. John the Baptist was an Old Testament prophet in the spirit and power of Elias (Elijah). Christ, in His earthly ministry is the Prophet like unto Moses, the dispenser of the OT Law.
Got to have the death of the Lamb of God, ending the Old Testament order of sacrifices before the NT can begin.
The Beatitudes are still tending the OT Law.
***Goodness, I hope you get that condition under control and stay awya form irritants. Good to see you back.***
Thank you.
Irritants? Well I’m back on FR RF, aren’t I?
No FK,God gave us freedom and a choice. Your idea of God plays favorites.
From the Blessed Archbishop Fulton Sheen..
“The choice before God in creating the world lay between creating a purely mechanical universe, peopled by mere automatons, or creating a spiritual universe in which there would be a choice of good and evil. What was the condition then of such a universe? He had to endow us with the power to say yes and no and to be captains of our own fate and destiny. Morality implies responsibility and duty, but these can exist only on the condition of freedom. Stones have no morals because they are not free. We do not condemn ice because it is melted by heat. Praise and blame can be bestowed only on those who are masters of their own will. It is only because you have the possibility of saying no, that there’s so much charm in your character when you say “yes.”
Take the quality of freedom away from anyone and it is no more possible for him to be virtuous than it is for the blade of grass which he treads beneath his feet to be virtuous. Take freedom away from life, and there would be no more reason to honor the fortitude of martyrs than there would be to honor the flames which kindle their stakes. Is it therefore any impeachment of God that He chose not to reign over an empire of chemicals? If God has deliberately chosen a kind of empire to be ruled by freedom rather than by force, and if we find that His subjects are able to act against His will, as stars and atoms cannot, does this not prove that He has given to those human beings the chance of breaking allegiance so that there might be meaning and purpose in that allegiance when they freely choose it? Here we have a mere suggestion about the possibility of evil.”
(excerpt from “Through the Year with Fulton Sheen ”)
Well, again, when Catholics stop proselytizing so will we.
And the Bible specifically reminds us that He doesn't. Unfortunately, there is enough of 'diversionary' material that suggests otherwise, and when taken out of its historical perspective and the degree of revelation involved, it can lead to mistaken Reformed-like, or Mohammedan-like conclusions.
From the Blessed Archbishop Fulton Sheen.. “The choice before God in creating the world lay between creating a purely mechanical universe, peopled by mere automatons, or creating a spiritual universe in which there would be a choice of good and evil. What was the condition then of such a universe? He had to endow us with the power to say yes and no and to be captains of our own fate and destiny"
Amen.
"Praise and blame can be bestowed only on those who are masters of their own will. It is only because you have the possibility of saying no, that there’s so much charm in your character when you say 'yes.'"
Beautiful and powerful!
Take the quality of freedom away from anyone and it is no more possible for him to be virtuous than it is for the blade of grass which he treads beneath his feet to be virtuous.
Exactly!
"Is it therefore any impeachment of God that He chose not to reign over an empire of chemicals? If God has deliberately chosen a kind of empire to be ruled by freedom rather than by force, and if we find that His subjects are able to act against His will, as stars and atoms cannot, does this not prove that He has given to those human beings the chance of breaking allegiance so that there might be meaning and purpose in that allegiance when they freely choose it?"
The Bishop his the nail on the head when he said that without free will, there is no meaning to our allegiance. The Reformed retort, then God is weak and it's not about His glory. This is the same mindset that taunted Christ on the cross, saying that if he were the Son of God he would come down from the Cross and they would believe Him.
He was too "weak" in their eyes; he didn't fit the tyrannical God of Judaism who smites His enemies. His strenght was in His "weakness." It accomplished more because it didn't subjugate but it won over by love. Imagine, we believe and adore a God who allowed to be humiliated and tortured. How could we possibly believe in Him?!? To man's heart, epitomized in the Reformed theology, Zeus-like selfish, egocentric
Excellent post, dear bother.
Love trumps freedom? That is an oxymoron. Love is the source of freedom. True love is true only if it is free, FK.
One could say that a sadist and a masochist make a "perfect" couple? A sadistical "God" and his masochistic followers make a perfect "church" too. They may "love" it, but it ain't love!
I willget to the rest of your post later.
***Well, again, when Catholics stop proselytizing so will we.***
Why would you imperil your immortal soul by acting or reacting to others’ perceived immoralities? If you believe that your eternal salvation rests upon your moral activities (that are enabled by the Grace of God), and there lie duties therein, why would you care if another group of individuals did or did not do something?
Exactly as Jesus puts it.
You MUST believe in Him and in the Father. You MUST accept the Grace of God.
But you also MUST choose good over evil, using every gift that God gives as strength and guide.
***The Bishop his the nail on the head when he said that without free will, there is no meaning to our allegiance. The Reformed retort, then God is weak and it’s not about His glory. This is the same mindset that taunted Christ on the cross, saying that if he were the Son of God he would come down from the Cross and they would believe Him.***
Without responsibility, there can be no judgement. What are the Reformed going to be Judged on? Some Reformed claim that they will only be Judged on whether they were frogmarched by the Holy Spirit and the reprobate will be Judged upon not being frogmarched.
At any rate, neither is Judgement and the automatons are neither guilty of sin nor worthy of anything at all.
***Irritants?***
You called? :>)
***Your idea of God plays favorites.***
Dear Saint, Did God choose the Israelites out of all the nations as his chosen people? Did not God choose Jacob over Esau? Did not God choose David over Saul?
God chooses all the time, and he chooses whom he wants in heaven.
God allows those who FREELY CHOOSE evil to go their wicked ways,Dear IT. God Did Not create them for the purpose of evil so not to CHOOSE them
That God hates nothing from Saint Thomas Aquinas
AS love is to good, so is hatred to evil; we wish good to them whom we love, and evil to them whom we hate. If then the will of God cannot be inclined to evil, as has been shown (Chap. XCV), it is impossible for Him to hate anything.
2. The will of God tends to things other than Himself inasmuch as, by willing and loving His own being and goodness, He wishes it to be diffused as far as is possible by communication of His likeness. This then is what God wills in beings other than Himself, that there be in them the likeness of His goodness. Therefore God wills the good of everything, and hates nothing.
4. What is found naturally in all active causes, must be found especially in the Prime Agent. But all agents in their own way love the effects which they themselves produce, as parents their children, poets their own poems, craftsmen their works. Much more therefore is God removed from hating anything, seeing that He is cause of all.*
Hence it is said: Thou lovest all things that are, and hatest nothing of the things that Thou hast made (Wisd. xi, 25).
Some things however God is said, to hate figuratively (similitudinarie), and that in two ways. The first way is this, that God, in loving things and willing their good to be, wills their evil not to be: hence He is said to have hatred of evils, for the things we wish not to be we are said to hate. So it is said: Think no evil in your hearts every one of you against his friend, and love no lying oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord (Zach. viii, 17). But none of these things are effects of creation: they are not as subsistent things, to which hatred or love properly attaches. The other way is by God's wishing some greater good, which cannot be without the privation of a lesser good; and thus He is said to hate, whereas it is more properly love. Thus inasmuch as He wills the good of justice, or of the order of the universe, which cannot be without the punishment or perishing of some, He is said to hate those beings whose punishment or perishing He wills, according to the text, Esau I have hated (Malach. i, 3); and, Thou hatest all who work Iniquity, thou wilt destroy all who utter falsehood: the man of blood and deceit the Lord shall abominate (Ps. v, 7).*
Mark, I know you weren't looking for it, but you just officially won the "Irony of the Week" award!!! :)
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