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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; MarkBsnr
“”God made one set of people whom He loved and wanted with Him in Heaven. He also made all the other people and every other thing in the world.””

No FK,God gave us freedom and a choice. Your idea of God plays favorites.

From the Blessed Archbishop Fulton Sheen..

“The choice before God in creating the world lay between creating a purely mechanical universe, peopled by mere automatons, or creating a spiritual universe in which there would be a choice of good and evil. What was the condition then of such a universe? He had to endow us with the power to say yes and no and to be captains of our own fate and destiny. Morality implies responsibility and duty, but these can exist only on the condition of freedom. Stones have no morals because they are not free. We do not condemn ice because it is melted by heat. Praise and blame can be bestowed only on those who are masters of their own will. It is only because you have the possibility of saying no, that there’s so much charm in your character when you say “yes.”
Take the quality of freedom away from anyone and it is no more possible for him to be virtuous than it is for the blade of grass which he treads beneath his feet to be virtuous. Take freedom away from life, and there would be no more reason to honor the fortitude of martyrs than there would be to honor the flames which kindle their stakes. Is it therefore any impeachment of God that He chose not to reign over an empire of chemicals? If God has deliberately chosen a kind of empire to be ruled by freedom rather than by force, and if we find that His subjects are able to act against His will, as stars and atoms cannot, does this not prove that He has given to those human beings the chance of breaking allegiance so that there might be meaning and purpose in that allegiance when they freely choose it? Here we have a mere suggestion about the possibility of evil.”
(excerpt from “Through the Year with Fulton Sheen ”)

5,911 posted on 05/29/2008 5:24:01 AM PDT by stfassisi ( ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: stfassisi; Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr
No FK,God gave us freedom and a choice. Your idea of God plays favorites

And the Bible specifically reminds us that He doesn't. Unfortunately, there is enough of 'diversionary' material that suggests otherwise, and when taken out of its historical perspective and the degree of revelation involved, it can lead to mistaken Reformed-like, or Mohammedan-like conclusions.

From the Blessed Archbishop Fulton Sheen.. “The choice before God in creating the world lay between creating a purely mechanical universe, peopled by mere automatons, or creating a spiritual universe in which there would be a choice of good and evil. What was the condition then of such a universe? He had to endow us with the power to say yes and no and to be captains of our own fate and destiny"

Amen.

"Praise and blame can be bestowed only on those who are masters of their own will. It is only because you have the possibility of saying no, that there’s so much charm in your character when you say 'yes.'"

Beautiful and powerful!

Take the quality of freedom away from anyone and it is no more possible for him to be virtuous than it is for the blade of grass which he treads beneath his feet to be virtuous.

Exactly!

"Is it therefore any impeachment of God that He chose not to reign over an empire of chemicals? If God has deliberately chosen a kind of empire to be ruled by freedom rather than by force, and if we find that His subjects are able to act against His will, as stars and atoms cannot, does this not prove that He has given to those human beings the chance of breaking allegiance so that there might be meaning and purpose in that allegiance when they freely choose it?"

The Bishop his the nail on the head when he said that without free will, there is no meaning to our allegiance. The Reformed retort, then God is weak and it's not about His glory. This is the same mindset that taunted Christ on the cross, saying that if he were the Son of God he would come down from the Cross and they would believe Him.

He was too "weak" in their eyes; he didn't fit the tyrannical God of Judaism who smites His enemies. His strenght was in His "weakness." It accomplished more because it didn't subjugate but it won over by love. Imagine, we believe and adore a God who allowed to be humiliated and tortured. How could we possibly believe in Him?!? To man's heart, epitomized in the Reformed theology, Zeus-like selfish, egocentric

Excellent post, dear bother.

5,913 posted on 05/29/2008 8:45:14 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: stfassisi

***Your idea of God plays favorites.***

Dear Saint, Did God choose the Israelites out of all the nations as his chosen people? Did not God choose Jacob over Esau? Did not God choose David over Saul?

God chooses all the time, and he chooses whom he wants in heaven.


5,918 posted on 05/29/2008 12:06:17 PM PDT by irishtenor (Check out my blog at http://boompa53.blogspot.com/)
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To: stfassisi; kosta50; MarkBsnr; irishtenor
From the Blessed Archbishop Fulton Sheen...... “The choice before God in creating the world lay between creating a purely mechanical universe, peopled by mere automatons, or creating a spiritual universe in which there would be a choice of good and evil.

Unfortunately, this very flawed premise wrecks everything that follows. Archbishop Sheen doesn't seem to understand that "freedom" is in the eye of the beholder. Would Archbishop Sheen call an amoeba in a petri dish "free"? It really depends on how you look at it doesn't it? It is the same with God. Archbishop Sheen appears to make the mistake of framing the issue in terms of either having man as machine (presumably his view of Reformed theology) or man as being totally free and independent of God such that man can do anything he wants absolutely. Neither of these is the truth. God is the only Being who is free absolutely. Man has varying levels of freedom within the parameters that God sets.

5,945 posted on 05/29/2008 11:12:46 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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