Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Dr.E: You are not being honest recalling my posts correctly since I never made the above statement you attributed to me.
I have never said any of us can be sure of anyone's salvation other than our own. And I've made that statement dozens of times.
Further, I said I have a reasonable faith that my children are saved...
1) because God gave them to me in the first place and
2) because Scripture tells us...
"For the promise is unto you, and to you and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call." - Acts 2:39
But I also acknowledged God may choose to give anyone He wants a devil child. It's His call.
My job is to raise my children to kneel to none but Christ, and thus I have confidence that God will take care of the rest.
Let's agree that you won't speak for me and I won't speak for you.
If I've learned anything from these discussions it's that the RCC and the EO believe 90% of the Bible was written to a few dozen people rather than to all the family of God. It's been eye-opening, to say the least.
If He addressed anyone in particular with such a request, it was never a crowd, but a specific individual. "Follow me" He would say to the person in question.
That opinion contradicts the words of Christ who tells us whom He came to gather...
"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. " -- Matthew 15:24
And whom He prays for...
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -- Matthew 17:20
Dr. E: That opinion contradicts the words of Christ who tells us whom He came to gather..."I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. " -- Matthew 15:24...And whom He prays for..."Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -- Matthew 17:20
What your random verse generator produced has nothing to do with passing of the authority to all believers. The Church had its elected elders from the beginning. Not every Tom, Dick and Harriette who can read was commissioned to preach and teach.
For people who hang on to every word in the Bible, a lot of Reformed seem to be missing the key words in it.
The Great Commission (in both Matthew's and Mark's accounts) was given to the eleven apostles only.
That commission was then given to select others by their choice in succession until the present day.
That's why Protestant "clergy" have no apostolic authority, and that's why their "churches" are not churches.
God creates devils? Goodness! And you call this "Christianity?"
Your life witnesses, without words.
***I have never said any of us can be sure of anyone’s salvation other than our own. And I’ve made that statement dozens of times. ***
I did not find any statements to the contrary, so I will defer to you. I did ping you in the first place so that you would have the opportunity to discuss or rebut.
***Further, I said I have a reasonable faith that my children are saved...
1) because God gave them to me in the first place and
2) because Scripture tells us...
“For the promise is unto you, and to you and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.” - Acts 2:39***
You may wish to look at verse 38 for the context. If your children do not repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, they will not receive the Holy Spirit. There is no frogmarching. Verses 40 and 41 confirm it. If the Holy Spirit hijacks souls, then no arguing and vehement testifying is necessary. Those who accept God’s grace and the message of the Church are those called His children.
***My job is to raise my children to kneel to none but Christ, and thus I have confidence that God will take care of the rest. ***
I think I’ve asked this before: how much kneeling do you actually do?
***Let’s agree that you won’t speak for me and I won’t speak for you.***
If I spoke for you, the message would be a lot closer to the message of Christ than it currently is.
***God creates devils? Goodness! And you call this “Christianity?”***
The Reformed God creates all evil, forces people to sin, inflicts His homemade devils upon people, plucks a handful and inserts them into the limousine and glorifies in the eternal damnation of the rest.
I’m sure that it’s all there in the Protestant Bible somewhere.
As a Presbyterian, I believe the church still has elected elders. These elected elders govern the earthly body of the church; they do not dispense God's grace; they are not infallible in any way; they are not "another Christ;" they are not required to remain in some kind of anti-life monasticism; and they are not the final authority which belongs to God and His word alone.
That's why Protestant "clergy" have no apostolic authority, and that's why their "churches" are not churches.
LOL. According to the anti-Scriptural legalisms of Rome and the EO.
According to God's word...
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." -- Matthew 18:20
“The Great Commission (in both Matthew’s and Mark’s accounts) was given to the eleven apostles only.”
So that means NOBODY today has any responsibility to proclaim the Gospel? You don’t say that the Great Commission was given to the 11 apostles and their successors. I guess the pope is an interloper.
[God creates devils? Goodness! And you call this “Christianity?”]
I offer for your consideration, Proverbs 16:4 “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”
Here’s a link to a book that closely examines what the Scripture says about the structure and function of the NT church - not comfortable for most SBC pastors, likely true for many others. http://www.antonbosch.com/books.html
I sent your note to Randall and he was greatly encouraged by it.
Thanks for your report from the Philippines.
From your link...That there is but one true Church consisting of all from every denomination who have truly been born again.
And...That the Bible is for Christ’s followers the only authoritative and infallible rule of faith, practice, doctrine, daily living and CHURCH ADMINISTRAION, and the final standard by which all creeds, doctrines and actions must be measured.
I would like to know who makes up the Church administration from the ONE TRUE Church it claims that is made up of all denominations with various beliefs?It must be the guy who runs the website who decides the Church administration;)
Sound like a statement from the United Nations-;)
Yes - I’ve not only though(t) about reading the statements of faith of web sites I post links to, I’ve actually read several of them.
I thoroughly agree with both of the statements you apparently extracted (I did not confirm them).
The Bible tells us that the universal (or lower case catholic) church IS the people Christ has redeemed regardless of where they live - and, ostensibly - regardless of whether they belong to the local church at Smyrna or Corinth.
As a Christian (called “saint” in Scripture), I believe that the Bible IS the only authoritative and infallible source for those things listed - including its instruction on church administration. The web site does not claim that the Bible tells each local group of elders what decisions to make every minute; merely that the Bible describes how a church is to organize and allocate duties among the 2 offices it establishes for the local church.
The headship of the universal church is none other than the Lord Jesus - no man or group of men can properly shepherd the flock of God except the Good Shepherd.
The local churches are the visible manifestations of the true church, which consists of only the redeemed in Christ. Each local church has “wheat and chaff” in it, as man cannot know the condition of another’s heart.
I hope I’ve answered your questions. Anton Bosch (the guy who runs the web site) has no illusions about being in charge. I’ve spoken with him (via email) and found him to be a humble man who seeks to honor the Lord and encourage those who claim Christ to look to Him and His Word for instruction on how to serve and honor Him. Seems most reasonable to me.
If they were visible manifestations, as you say,than you would have unity(which you don't) and visibly teach the same thing(which you don't).
Nice try though ,Dear Brother.
I wish you a Blessed day!
I understand your POV and respect you and Orthodox position.,but I will stay within the teaching of the west.
IMHO,since God uses His creature to build up the Church through the ages ,it seems to me that this would have to include the triune nature of God guiding that process through human nature.
That said,I will refrain from arguing an over 1000 year old problem between us and Pray for complete unity for the leaders of both sides to figure out.
I am certainly not qualified to handle this topic. All I can do is to pray and have love and respect for my Orthodox brothers and sisters whom we are most importantly united in the Eucharist
I wish you a Blessed day!
That wasn't the claim. The claim was that God would not let His elect sin SUCH THAT salvation would be lost. The claim is that we can reasonably infer this from scripture, as I have posted. No one says that the elect stop sinning after they are saved.
There were 11 remaining disciples, not of all whom believed, at the the Great Commission. Jesus gave it to them (presumably the believing ones) and they gave it to those whom they made their successors.
I think Jesus knew what would happen a scant few weeks later. The command was to all of them, as well as all of us. Again, the Apostolic view makes no sense. On the one hand, you say that God wants all to be saved. But on the other hand you say that only a tiny minority of people (clergy) are directed by God to carry the message. Many more would be reached and saved if the attitude was that Jesus was speaking to the laity as well.
It seems to me that the "Bible-believeing Christians" believe something that's not in the Bible, namely that the Great Commission applied to every Tom, Dick and Harry who decided to preach.
No, I've not seen any of us post anything like that. Bible-believing Christians believe that the Great Commission applies to everyone with true faith. That leaves out some who decide to preach.
Jesus never taught that Israel included Gentiles to any of His disciples. It was a dire necessity for the Church to survive that led to the idea that the Gentiles are in the "club."
Then either God erred or God needed Paul's help. I mean, if the Church had folded, would God have said "Oh well"? This is why it is so dangerous to presume that man is autonomous, as many Christians do. Man is always built up AT THE EXPENSE of God.
FK: "The elect are predestined to be saved (remember the different uses of the word "saved" within time?) which IS AS GOOD AS BEING saved."
Then, how come Paul says "Let no one in any way deceive you" [2 Thes 2:3] and "[T]he Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." [1 Tim 4]?
Being deceived in no way means that one loses his salvation. I still sin so from time to time I am deceived. During the end times, many will "fall away from the faith", but that does not refer to individual believers. Rather, it refers to non-believers who are otherwise "good" people. We all know them. They appear to be moral people, appear to be "in the faith", who act similarly to us, but they do not in fact have faith. They are the ones who will turn to "deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons". Otherwise, God is a liar and His seal means nothing.
How can anyone "let" himself be deceived if he is predestined to be deceived? Is this not as good as being deceived? And how would you know either way?
It is an outward calling/teaching to instill proper attitude. "Watch out so that you don't sin", etc. These are all over the place. By following these we conform ourselves to the image of Christ. In no way do these mean that God is not in control.
And who will do the deceiving according to Paul? Well, it seems to me he pulls the OT card and says—God! "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false" [2 Thes 2:11]! Deluding influence is "different" from deception—how?
Paul is just saying that God will leave them to themselves. For instance:
Rom 1:26-27 : 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
We are all born into total depravity, so by observation we can see that God provides "some" measure of protection to all men, or all lost people would act in a totally depraved manner. If that protection is withdrawn, permanently or temporarily, then any sort of horrible thing can happen. Without God, men are incapable of seeing the light, so if God turns away then men WILL believe what is false.
FK: "Whenever I hear complaining like this I am forced to ask if you would prefer a God who treated us as we deserved to be treated?"
How can you "deserve" to be treated either way if you are predestined to be pardoned or condemned before you even existed and "deserved" anything???
All men are sinners and deserve hell. Period. God has predestined to save some, but not all, despite what they deserve.
No, the Christians believe God intercedes on our behalf and rewards those whose will is in harmony with His will and their intentions are pure. We don't believe He forces us to commit acts by predestination and has already pronounced our sentence based on none of our doing.
In what form does this intercession take without interference? I mean, if I and a non-believer were up for the same job, and God decided to reward me, then the other guy (who was more qualified) was interfered with. Or, does God never do something like this, thus making prayers of supplication moot? Or, does God just not interfere with salvation, but He interferes with everything else?
FK: "Of course God planned the Flood, He said so in no uncertain terms and planned for its aftermath."
Of course He did, but it doesn't match the Reformed God formula because the Book says He was "sorry" for having made man. Did He not make man and predestined him to be wicked? So, why was He "sorry?" or "surprised?"
We don't interpret that verse the way you do because it has God admitting a mistake. We don't think God makes mistakes, therefore the verse cannot mean what you assert it means. He meant "sorry" in the sense of "it's a shame that happened". It was nevertheless part of His plan. I'm sure He was "sorry" about the crucifixion too, but that was also a part of His plan.
He could have taught Pilate and He could have just 'changed' everyone's hearts and avoided all this.
The Gospels show us that Jesus treated the disingenuous and false believers very differently than He treated His own disciples. He answered in riddles to the former and gave wisdom to the latter. You appear to have Jesus fooling everyone. Plus, you appear to have the Father purposely fooling Peter with a falsehood. Jesus gives revelation to His chosen. His teachings are nonsense to those who are not chosen.
FK: "In fact, by your statements, Jesus purposely misled them. That doesn't sound like the Jesus of the Gospels.
...... But, I agree, Christ of the Gospels would never do that. How can you deceive the deceived? If He told them the truth they wouldn't have believed Him anyway.
So then Jesus DIDN'T tell them the truth??? But aside from that, if you agree that Jesus wouldn't mislead His own, then why do you assert that Jesus did just that? You have Jesus condoning what He knew to be Peter's false belief (if we accept your premise of the situation)? Jesus could have simply said: "No, Peter, I mean that I am really God". Yet, apparently according to you Jesus let this go and Peter had the totally wrong impression, VALIDATED by Jesus when He confirmed that this false teaching came directly from the Father. Do you see where I am coming from?
Christ didn't say "No." He answered affirmatively to the question if He was the christos (the anointed) Son of God. But those who asked Him understood those words meant the anointed (moshiach) a human warrior-king (son of God) sent by God to restore the Kingdom of Israel.
So according to you Jesus DID in fact lie to them and to the disciples because He was NOT in fact the human-only warrior king? Jesus had to know that that was what He was agreeing to if you are right.
But we accept all the Gospels because the earlier ones see Christ in His humanity and the Gospel of John sees Him in His divinity, and both reflect the Christ we know and believe in.
But the portrayal of Jesus as man and Jesus as God should be in harmony. You seem to have them in conflict since you say that the Gospels contradict each other. I say they do not contradict each other.
It was absolutely necessary to write John's Gospel and the timing is not accidental: Ebionites and Gnostics were becoming a prominent factor in denying Christ's full divinity which the Church came to realize ever so slowly.
You have the books of the Bible being written under the minds of men for reasons such as expediency and in reaction to human activity within time. I have the Bible being written under the mind of God for the purpose of His revelation to His children, on His own terms, and in His own time. I don't suppose that two Christians could disagree more about the essence of the scriptures themselves as you and I do. :)
But when we read the OT through the prism of the Gospels, we do not ask if this is the human or divine Jesus we are looking for; we ask "where is Christ (that we know from the Gospels) in all this?" Or "is this what Christ taught?" Where is compassion and forgiveness spoken of in the Gospels? Where does the anger and hatred and prejudice of the OT fit into the Christ of the Gospels?
Since you have John conflicting with the other Gospels I can only assume you mean that you look at the OT through the prism of the Gospels as seen through the prism of your Church. You appear to see only a mono-faceted God who was on a specific mission to accomplish a specific thing and ignore the fuller revelation that has been given to us.
The Bible does say that Christ is divine, but it does so at the very end (chronologically speaking).
OK good, as far as my understanding was going, that is progress. :)
If the Bible until then (the end of the 1st century) did say it outright as John's Gospel does, then Ebionites and Gnostics would have had nothing to go by.
I'm not sure that can be known, since many crazy groups have the benefit of the whole Bible today and come up with all sorts of perverted beliefs. As I type this I am watching two polygamist women on Larry King Alive right now. So, to me it always goes back to the eyes and ears thing. Without God, the essential teachings in the Bible are not really going to ring true.
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