Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
It should not be a surprise to anyone that the Tsunami in Indonesia took place in the part of the world where child pornography and child slavery runs rampant. “
Right. And conversely, as is a regular experience on Mt. Athos, the original state of creation is restored in the vicinity of a person far advanced in theosis. The lion really will lie down with the lamb in such situations as the story of +Gerasimos’ lion reminds us.
Without knowing it, of course. When one listens to his conscience, he listens to God.
So when we talk about the miracles of a proposed saint we are talking about those performed after he or she departed?
Yes.
If we are "freely cooperating" then what is the difference between Pelagius version that man can work his way to heaven? In the end man is freely cooperating. And, as you've stated, it is God's will for all to be saved. So in a way you're confirming Pelagius' view; that 1) God wants men saved, 2) God shares His grace with all men, 3) man needs to make a choice. This isn't far from Pelagius' view.
God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.
Actually, while very nice, God hates the sin that man produces so much so He has a Lake of Fire waiting to cast us into where the worms will torment us forever. God deliberately allow the fall of Adam, so I think it's rather difficult to say that He did not predestined it.
It isn't that man doesn't like God (at least in some form or fashion). It's that God doesn't like the sin of men and unregenerated man is the enemy of God.
Good night stfassisi. It is a pleasure to discuss these things.
Grace alone means that woth faith and good works are the result of Divine Grace and nothing else. Eph 2 says the same thing: that works do not produce grace. It does not say that works do not produce faith.
Pelagius (allegedly) claimed man doesn't need the grace of Restoration (Baptism) in order to be free to choose. The Church never taught that, which is why Pelagianism is heresy, by definition.
And, as [stafassisi] stated, it is God's will for all to be saved
Yes, that's biblical.
God shares His grace with all men
No, God offers His grace to all men. After Christ redeemed mankind, that became possible.
man needs to make a choice
That comes with freedom. God doesn't make our choices. That would make us robots.
God hates the sin that man produces so much so He has a Lake of Fire waiting to cast us into where the worms will torment us forever
The Bible tells us the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels, not for mankind. The transgressions of angels are unpardonable. But for mankind, God offers salvation. That some men will end up in the Lake is because they chose to follow Satan and not God. It is their choice, not God's. God does not force us to sin.
God deliberately allow the fall of Adam, so I think it's rather difficult to say that He did not predestined it.
God did o such thing. He gave Adam and Eve freedom, wide freedom, save for one restriction, lest they have unlimited freedom and only God has that. "Man has to know his limitations." (good old Clint Eastwood!)
It is absolutely essential that man is free. If we were not free, then who would decide for us? If God made our choices, we would indeed be robots. But, being free, we can resist Satan. He has power over us if we allow him to have power over us, if we give in to his deception, if we let him convince us that God is a liar, the way he did Eve.
By choosing God and resisting evil, we can be moral beings. God wants us to be rational, merciful, moral beings.
By giving us freedom He also knows that some of us will (ab)use that freedom and loose it. That's what happened to our ancestral parents. But God did not abandon them. He did not send them to hell. He gave all mankind a chance to come back to God, to be restored to life. As stfassisi says, one must persist in that sin until the end in order to lose his life. The unrepentant soul goes to hell.
If God deliberately predestined Adam and Eve to fall from grace, then why was He saving them? Such a "God" is more a pagan, masochistic deity than the one True God we know in Christ.
He did know what their unfortunate choice would be, but He did not force them to sin. And, despite their transgression, He did not abandon them, or, for that matter, the whole world.
My comment was meant to be akin to "washing the windshield helps make a car clean". We view sanctification as a lifelong process. Testing helps move that process forward. So does prayer (washing the doors), and so does good works(washing the trunk), etc. .............. Being sanctified brings us closer in our relationship to God, a thing God says He wants for us during our time here on earth. Many of the same things you count for theosis we would count for sanctification, so we should agree that they are worthwhile.
FK: Really? When does that ever happen from God? God never tests us to our ultimate harm, He only tests us to our ultimate good.
That's a politically correct answer, FK, but unfortunately it is false. The OT God you believe in does harm people.
When God executed His justice in the OT, it wasn't a test! :) Totally different subject.
It's just that if we go through a tribulation and recover, we call it "being tested," and if we don't make it, we call it "tempted."
I don't see it that way. I will grant that sometimes it can be difficult to discern which is which, but it is NOT outcome determined. For example, if my cable scrambled and I suddenly had the naked channel for free, my best guess is that it would be a temptation. However, if I got sick, and my choices were to either seek God for healing or curse Him for my sickness, then I would guess that to be a test.
In addition, my view is that this is complicated somewhat by the personal nature of tests and temptations. For example, if the naked channel happened to be the gay naked channel, then it really wouldn't be a temptation to me. :) So, theoretically, I do think that the same thing could be a test for one and a temptation for another. I just hold that it is not outcome determined.
FK: "One being tested "a lot" in no way means he is automatically "more sanctified" than one who is tested less. It doesn't match up like that. Everyone's individual levels of the various methods of sanctification are all over the place."
And how do you know that?
Because God uses more than one method to sanctify. Wouldn't you agree that theosis is achieved by various means? It's the same thing. So, God chooses to concentrate on Bible study for some, prayer for others, testing for still others, and there is a mix for everyone. There is no way to quantify that if I am tested more than the next guy, that therefore I am more sanctified than him. Who knows how the other guy has been sanctified by God? I "know" this by simple observation of what is.
FK: "I want to live on this earth EXACTLY as long as God wants me to, no more."
Why, aren't you lucky that's exactly what you want, given that you don't have any choice!
All it means is that I accept the order of the universe as God has put it forth. What could be wrong with that? :)
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-easter.html
Thanks for the link, and I have reasonable agreement with it. I just can't match the money lines with what I have been taught of Orthodoxy. For example:
"Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen from the grave."
But the forgiveness spoken of is extremely limited. Upon the single next sin, the next time he falls again, the person again has a reason to mourn. Likewise:
Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with. It was in an uproar because it is mocked. It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed. It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated. It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive.
This doesn't appear to match the theology. Hell is still there and many people still go there to this day. What Jesus did spared no one from hell itself. It just gave men the chance to not go there if they were smart enough to make the correct decision. That's not insignificant, but it isn't all that big a deal either, compared to what we view as the finished work of Christ. The "weakness" I am speaking of is not stand alone, but only in comparison to the God we see.
+John Chrysostomos: “Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with. It was in an uproar because it is mocked. It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed. It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated. It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive.”
FK: “This doesn’t appear to match the theology. Hell is still there and many people still go there to this day. What Jesus did spared no one from hell itself. It just gave men the chance to not go there if they were smart enough to make the correct decision. That’s not insignificant, but it isn’t all that big a deal either, compared to what we view as the finished work of Christ. The “weakness” I am speaking of is not stand alone, but only in comparison to the God we see.”
The extent of the chasm which has opened between the patristic theology of The Church in the East, a theology which developed in the first 4 centuries after the Crucifixion, and that which has developed in the non Latin West over the past 500 years is truly breathtaking! I suppose one of the best reasons for an Orthodox Christian to spend time on these threads is to more fully understand just how very different Western Protestant/Reformed society is from the Orthodox Christian cultures of the East. When we say to inquirers that Orthodoxy is “counter cultural”, we really mean it.
Yes. And so was the Flood, an almost infinitely greater human catastrophe.
Is God the creator of Hitler and his evil?
God was the creator of Hitler, but not his evil. God doesn't have evil to instill.
Was Hitler predestined by God to exist and to be evil?
Yes, just as Judas was.
Was Hitler simply doing God's will?
On a single, narrow level "yes", but NOT in obedience. God withdrew Himself from Hitler dramatically, for His own reasons, and the results are known. In NO WAY did Hitler obey God.
Having "some" idea is not the same as knowing.
It sure CAN be. Having "some" idea is not the same as knowing IN FULL, which nobody claims. The revelation God gives us is plenty enough to "know" Him as He designed us to know Him. Your earlier comparison to our pets "knowing" us is no where close to the same thing.
FK, an offer you can't refuse is telling "I either shoot you or you jump off this building." If you believe this is how the Christian God operates, then we are a lot farther apart then I ever imagined.
I do not understand your hypo. Either way the person dies. My point was to say that the correct choice becomes crystal clear to the person such that he will make the right choice, infallibly according to God's design.
But [according to the Protestant/Baptist theology] it doesn't affect the outcome, FK! It's pointless. It's like having to take continuing education courses to keep your license current, even though you can't lose your license if you don't!
Being sanctified brings us closer in our relationship to God, a thing God says He wants for us during our time here on earth
But God doesn't specify how close is close enough! In other words, it's left up to the individual to determine. It all comes down to the man-made religion tailor-made for human ego and comfort level!
This is the same issue I have with Orthodox fasting rules the way they are presented. On the one hand, the Church says everyone should do their "best." On the other hand, they should not compete with others, or boast like the Pharisees.
The Church also doesn't explain what makes some foods "bad" when the Bible says all food is good! And the Bible also says that no one should judge another based on what they eat or don't eat.
What's much more important is how many old ladies did you help cross the street, FK, then if we read the bible, fast, or even pray. Have you shown mercy? Do no harm. Are your intentions pure?
In other words, be Christ-like, be perfect as your Father in heaven in perfect. Be good, God-like, as much as you can. Not minimum, not "just enough." Theosis is "becoming like God." Regaining His likeness. Restoring your original purpose.
Just because one goes to church every Sunday, and gives money to charity, and reads the Bible and prays a lot doesn't mean he is closer to God. Being closer to God means being God-like. Being less of what we are by nature, and being more what we can be by grace. That's what theosis is.
No it was murder. Killing children, no matter what the circumstance, is murder. Killing children is not God's justice in the Christian faith.
Kosta: It's just that if we go through a tribulation and recover, we call it "being tested," and if we don't make it, we call it "tempted."
FK: I don't see it that way. I will grant that sometimes it can be difficult to discern which is which, but it is NOT outcome determined.
Sure it is! We made the rule: if we "come out stronger," it was a test, and we are blessed; if we we are worse off, it was a temptation and we gave into it and are punished.
For example, if my cable scrambled and I suddenly had the naked channel for free, my best guess is that it would be a temptation
Oh, poor FK! And if you were to give in and watch "just a little," what would that do for your salvation? Nothing. And if you gave in to it and watched it all night long, would that make you less "saved?" Of course not.
So, what's the point even if it was a temptation and you gave in to it? You could say, I am only human and I still sin, but next time I may be able to resist. But, then, you could also say, God gave it to me and I took it. I harmed no one and I feel "blessed." :)
It can go either way, because the outcome was good. But if you watched the channel and something happened to your loved ones soon thereafter or while you were watching it, you might say it was God testing you and you failed and now yo are punished.
The outcome has a lot to do with our disposition towards sin.
However, if I got sick, and my choices were to either seek God for healing or curse Him for my sickness, then I would guess that to be a test
Well, if I got sick I would seek a human doctor first, and leave miracles to God. Cursing God for our sickness implies that God is responsible for it. If that's the case, then He is also repsosnible for my sin. It was sin that brought sickness and death into the world, not God.
God only gives blessings. Some use them to commit sin; others to do God's work.
Yes and no. We may approach it from different angles, but the process leads to the same progressive steps or elements: humility, dying unto oneself, repentance, forsaking the world, becoming Christ-like in your heart.
The intent is what matters. It can't be a life-long process because some have shorter lives then other. Becoming Chirst-like in your heart is the key. It's the Beatitudes. A person who is Christ-like in his heart will do Christ-like things, if he has a chance.
It is important to honestly try even if you honestly fail. The intent is what matters.
A man who is Christ-like in his heart is a restored man. A restored man is a saved man.
St. Symeon the new Theologian, put it simply: "I therefore, as you see, did not fast, I did not keep vigil, nor did I sleep on the ground, yet I humbled myself and Lord saved me." ["On Faith"]
There is no way to quantify that if I am tested more than the next guy, that therefore I am more sanctified than him.
The early Church certainly treated those who were martyred as having been sanctified more than others.
You're nitpicking and avoiding the central issue of whether or not "God created man in His image" really means anything. :) IF personality is NOT included in that idea, then it means nothing.
I don't think the OT God had "conversations" with the prophets and patriarchs. It was more like ordering them to do this or that.
What??? How about God's "negotiation" with Abraham about Sodom? How about God dealing with Moses' protestations about not being fit? How about God's discussion with David about his punishment? There are tons of examples. What God wanted WAS set, but He DID spend the time to discuss it.
Jews did not come to God because they loved him, but because they feared him!
How can you possibly know that? I don't think you get what "fear of the Lord" means. Fear of the Lord and love for the Lord are very related.
God had to prove to them that he is the Lord by showing them what he can do to those who don't obey him.
God did not HAVE to prove anything to anyone. He ordained all that happened.
Our knowledge of Christ is nothing like the knowledge of the God of the OT!
That's true, but it's not a competition. The revelation of God is complementary, not in conflict. The full revelation gives us the full picture we were meant to have. The OT God and the NT God are FULLY compatible. They are the SAME God.
Dear Brother,I offer to you the Catholic Catechism on Grace, in hope that it puts an end to the fixation you seem to have in trying to connect Pelagius teaching to Catholic teaching
Grace
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. the soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. the promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54
2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58
46 Cf. ⇒ Jn 1:12-18; ⇒ 17:3; ⇒ Rom 8:14-17; ⇒ 2 Pet 1:3-4.
47 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 2:7-9.
48 Cf. ⇒ Jn 4:14; ⇒ 7:38-39.
49 ⇒ 2 Cor 5:17-18.
50 St. Augustine, De gratia et libero arbitrio, 17: PL 44, 901.
51 St. Augustine, De natura et gratia, 31: PL 44, 264.
52 St. Augustine, Conf. 13, 36, 51: PL 32, 868; cf. ⇒ Gen 1:31.
53 Cf. LG 12.
54 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 12.
55 ⇒ Rom 12:6-8.
56 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1533-1534.
57 ⇒ Mt 7:20.
58 Acts of the trial of St. Joan of Arc.
Dear Brother, the Council of Carthage in 418 closed the door on the Pelagius heresy from the Church's standpoint
"Without God's grace it is not merely more difficult, but absolutely impossible to perform good works."(Council of Carthage 418)
I've heard the language argument before and discounted it because Peter probably drew from Paul's superior educational background and learned. What historical and geographical facts indicate it was not written by Peter?
The "strangers" (exiles) in those areas were not there when Peter was alive in the mid 60's of the 1st century.
Those are areas that Paul has already evangelized. It does not necessarily indicate "exiles". It can very well be understood to mean strangers to the world at large because they have become Christians.
FK: VERY un-Apostolic, but I'll take it in a heartbeat.
How is that un-Apostolic? You mean unBiblical?
No, I mean un-Orthodox. :) Look at the words: "... Himself prepared this body in the virgin as a temple for Himself, and took it for His very own" (emphasis added). This is a correct statement, but un-Orthodox because it does not recognize that God could not have entered this "temple" without the gracious assent of Mary. If Mary's assent was anywhere on +Athanasius' mind, then he would have said: "... Himself prepared this body in the virgin as a temple for Himself, and accepted it for His very own". He would have recognized the gift that Mary gave to God so that Jesus could come forward, if it was true. Yet he didn't. That's what I meant.
Now, in all fairness, I do not declare whether +Athanasius actually would have agreed with my inference. :) However, I would like to note again how much I "like" and prefer Patristic writings over other early writings because in most cases I can see a way to having some agreement, even if the intent of the author, in the end, doesn't support it. I think the style is much more inclusive among Christians.
There is no redemption before Christ. If you believe people were saved before his sacrifice on the cross, then his sacrifice on the cross was not necessary.
How does that follow?
His sacrifice made it possible for mankind to be saved by freeing people from enslavement of death to which everyone was subject. (and no, Elijah never died...)
His sacrifice ACCOMPLISHED within time the salvation of the elect. But if God is outside of time, a concept brought up much more often by Apostolics, then why can't Christ's death and resurrection apply retroactively? It did. Jesus said before he was crucified:
Luke 16:23-24 : 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham , have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
Where is Abraham if not in Heaven?
You keep saying that. Please show me where is Christ in the OT!
I keep answering, but....... :) The following link is to a chart that looks pretty good. The important thing is that Christ, AND Christ's love is all over the OT. Christ in the Old Testament
FK: I have to TOTALLY disagree with this one, for it has man coming to God by his own independent decisions and acts. The Bible just doesn't teach this. I mean, this says one way to salvation was by leading a good life and knowing the Law. Nobody was ever saved that way.
More conflict with the original Christianity. It shows that the Bible was not the way (it isn't even now, for the faith GIVEN).
Well THAT is certainly telling. :) YIKES! :)
It had a lot to do with how you lived and not what you preached. Preaching is just words.
You mean that preaching God's words ........ is just words. Preaching the Church's words is wholly different. :)
In other words, words are cheap. We know what we are by what we do. And God judges us by what we do, not what we preach.
Words CAN be cheap, but God's aren't. While what we do is very important in the salvation model, God's words are what give those deeds meaning and purpose. In a sense, without God's words all of our deeds are as filthy rags.
A propos of a line from On the Incarnation, FK, you wrote,
“VERY un-Apostolic, but I’ll take it in a heartbeat.
How is that un-Apostolic? You mean unBiblical?
No, I mean un-Orthodox. :)”
Odd comment, FK. +Athanasius’ opinion of the Most Holy Theotokos was, well, real high:
“Oh noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin?”
That sound Orthodox to you, FK? It should. In any event, proof texting the Fathers will almost always lead you off the track, especially when you have no sense for the consensus patrum.
"Πέτρος ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐκλεκτοῖς παρεπιδήμοις διασπορᾶς Πόντου, Γαλατίας, Καππαδοκίας, Ἀσίας, καὶ Βιθυνίας," The bold face words speak of chosen people (or chosen or elect people who are passing through, not really strangers which is another word) in a diaspora which in Greek implies exile. The Greek is beautiful. That alone makes me doubt that the Apostle Peter wrote it. Add to it Kosta's idea that the author is writing to people fleeing a persecution and it seems even less likely that +Peter is the author. Of course, to me that makes little difference.
And for many Protestants as well. It doesn't change the fact that it is wrong.
Prove positive of purely Pelagius' postulation.
Say that three times.
If grace is obtained through Baptism, then man is the one who can decide on God's grace. Man is the driver.
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