Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Do you figure that the elect are just a group one simply decides to sign up for? Let's check the scriptures:
Isa 42:1 : 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. KJV
Isa 45:4 : 4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. KJV
Rom 8:29-30 : 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. KJV
In all of these passages, Who does it sound like the decider is? The elect are determined SOLEY by God alone:
John 1:12-13 : 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV
Mark 13:20 : 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. KJV
So, if man is the decider, then there really is no concept of the elect at all, and the Bible is wrong.
My error in my post #471. The offending sentence should have read: “I demonstrated no “great respect” for Malachi Martin. He was NOT presented as a “Catholic standard”.”
Phillip was a member of the catholic church, not the Catholic Church, which did not exist until the 4th century, except in the Orwellian “history” of the RCC.
How is Paul outside “the Church” and where are these exceptions noted in Scripture? Where in Scripture is it recored that the Lord instituted what you call “the Church” (and I call the RCC)?
All history is fraught with errors (aside from that God recorded in the Bible), as it is written by men who all have agendas. The RCC version of history is not immune to such error - and neither is the pope.
Umm, FK, we need to talk.
The verses from Isaiah don’t mean what you present them to mean.
The verses from Romans do not specify that only the elect are going to Heaven. And neither do the verses from Mark and John.
FK, you have given it a yeoman’s effort. I’ll give you points on it if you wish. You have been very persistent in trying to make sense out of nonsense. You have given all that you can in stating what the Reformed position is versus the reality of Scripture. But that dog don’t hunt.
If you’d like, I could show you where the Reformed position has gone wrong (starting with Genesis). Give up, give in and come back to God, my friend. Your compatriots are leading you down the garden path.
Anyway . . .
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I was praying all the way to Walmart and back grieving in my spirit and heart and getting some ink for my gradesheets for tomorrow. Thankfully, there were some of my favorite worship songs on the radio.
I realize that some of my cohorts may be . . . annoyed with me for the following but so be it . . . 'tis what I must do for the moment and maybe for several days or so.
I'm much more the sort of fellow who leaves the 99 and goes out in the blizzard after the one.
I don't have any realistic hope of influencing the die hard RC reps hereon or elsewehre. That is certainly a HOLY SPIRIT SIZED DIRECT FOCUS sort of job. All I can do is squirt a small water pistol toward the forest fire.
However, the bitterness, resentment, vengeance evidenced on this thread is reaching hipwader depths. That's dreadful. I don't want to be party to any excuse for that. There may come a time when I'll have to ignore such and leave the consequences to the individuals involved . . . but for now, I'm choosing to battle on another level in another manner. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, after all.
So, I'm going to spend some hours at least, if not some days and pray as much for equally fierce folks as much as or at least a significant percentage of time as much as I've spent time posting in their direction. And, to keep me tuned to that priority, I plan to do some at least partial fasting as much as lies within me to manage that.
I am gratified that my cohorts are carrying the TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL; THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE AND THE TRUTH OF HISTORY forward quite better than I can anyway.
I don't know if I'll read the thread or not. But I don't plan to be posting on it for some hours or days. If I feel compelled to respond, I plan to write to a Word file and sit on it for some days.
There are likely some who may tend to feel this action of mine is a definite sign of victory for their perspective or side or whatever. That would be a very serious error which they would likely seriously regret. But, that is their business between them and God.
Prayer is mightier even than the pen.
What impact my poor prayers may have is certainly God's business. And, I'll likely pray mostly in tongues so that will be even further His business. But my heart and spirit will definitely be earnestly in the prayer effort most of my waking, non-teaching hours whether at pottery or wherever. However, I have seen Him answer such prayers in past situations in very startling ways. So, may be interesting to see what surprises He may have in this prayer project.
Perhaps the only one changed or only thing changed will be me. That will be fine if that is Father's priority.
God's speed, Truth, Will, Righteousness, Priorities and focus for each reader of these poor words.
Sincerely,
Quixotically Quix.
***Have ye devolved into an idiot?***
Not that I’m aware of.
But if you would, please engage me with descriptions of the various rewards of those who are saved to Heaven.
I noted that you posted that the saved would have various rewards according to their deeds, and I wondered what those rewards might be. Scriptural support might be in order here, if you’d please.
There wouldn’t be 72 virgins a-waiting would there?
***I was praying all the way to Walmart***
Some of us just pray all the way to God.
***I don’t have any realistic hope of influencing the die hard RC reps hereon or elsewehre. That is certainly a HOLY SPIRIT SIZED DIRECT FOCUS sort of job.***
Maybe God is telling you something.
***And, I’ll likely pray mostly in tongues so that will be even further His business. ***
We’d appreciate English. Although Latin and Greek might be appropriate, since some of the Godly here understand those languages.
That’s a big good night there. I don’t want anything to erase that thought. Thanks!
***Phillip was a member of the catholic church, not the Catholic Church, which did not exist until the 4th century, except in the Orwellian “history” of the RCC.***
Phillip was a member of the Catholic Church, which came into being with the pleasure of Our Lord at Pentecost.
***How is Paul outside “the Church”***
Paul was brought into the Church by God on the road to Damascus, as differentiated from the instructions to bring individuals into the Church via baptism. God has the privilege of doing as He will - witness the thief on the cross. We do not, however, have that latitude. We must do as He has commanded us.
The Lord has instructed us to follow the Church that He has set up. You may disagree with it. That is your perogative. You may not, however, separate it from Him.
You've told us with every post that you're some kind of "non-Catholic," but I've never met a "non-Catholic" who defends the RCC with such personal and unbridled enthusiasm, and with so much disdain for those who hold the Scriptures above the doctrines of men.
And with cursing, no less.
St. Paul was writing about precisely the sort of activity you are engaging in. It is you who are actively working to divide the Body of Christ. Oh, yeah, you say you're working for right doctrine, but look at what you're sowing: pointless dissention.
"Pointless dissention?" I don't know many Protesants who view the Reformation and the differences between Rome and non-Romanists as "pointless."
Usually those who refer to Paul as St. Paul are Catholics.
Since it's been asked of me countless times, do you mind telling us what church you do attend?
MARK: How can you be judged by what someone else has done?
Well, you've just about erased the entire Gospel in that one sentence.
Congratulations.
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." -- Romans 5:9
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" -- Romans 3:24
"That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:7
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" -- Romans 5:1
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." -- 1 Peter 2:24
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." -- Romans 8:1-4"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." -- 2 Corinthians 5:21
"Peace with God through Christ" doesn't just mean Christ is our advocate who tries to persuade God to save us.
It means Christ takes on our sins and pays for every one of them so that when we stand before God to be judged we are declared "acquitted" of our sins based on Christ's payment, and not our own; on His obedience and not our own; on His righteousness and not our own.
"By whose stripes ye were healed."
AMEN!
I have no idea what that means.
That realization should sober you up. Sad, bored experience assures me that it won't, but it should.
Does the RCC haul you out on these threads when the RC posters are having difficulty defending their beliefs from Scripture, and so it's left to you to make inflammatory, personal remarks that hope to bait someone into responding with equal rancor and smarminess?
Thanks, but I'll pass. "Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools." -- Eccl. 7:9
May I present someone who disagrees with you...
"Be not afraid; only belive." -- Mark 5:36
Even when the truth is staring a person in the face, STILL they deny it.
Ah, the power of deception.
I agree. Spreading God's word leads to people seeing the truth. Interestingly, I have come across some measure of animosity by Apostolics (Latin/Orthodox) toward Protestant missionaries for doing just as you say. On another thread I was talking with an Orthodox (who at the time may or may not have been representing the beliefs of the Orthodox Church) about our missionaries in places like South America and Apostolic European countries, and he gave me the impression that once a baby is baptized in an Apostolic Church, that the Church sort of "owns" that person for the rest of his life in a spiritual sense.
I asked him if that baby grew up to be a completely lost person whether it would be better for a Protestant to witness to him about the mercy and grace of Christ, or would it be better if the Protestant missionary left him alone. He said that such a person is the Church's responsibility, whether the Church ever "finds" him or not, so it would be better for the person if the Protestant left him alone. I was rather taken aback and told him that I would certainly rather see a lost person become an Apostolic than to see him remain dead in his sins, if those were the only two choices.
Conservonator, how would you describe the Latin view on this subject? With no reference to the people praying in front of statues in the article, do you think it is wrong for Protestant missionaries to minister to faithless people in predominantly Catholic countries?
And if that was true it would be bad because ....... ?
In terms of God's TRUTH, are some parts of God's word more true than others?
But of course your original statement isn't true at all. It is only your reasonable perception from personal experience. When we Reformers practice apologetics with Apostolics we frequently quote from Paul and the OT because THAT'S where many of the disagreements are. Apostolics generally don't "like" Paul because he so often trashes your Tradition. So, we back up our objections with Paul.
In addition, Apostolics don't generally "like" the OT because they think it portrays a God that doesn't fit the Church's model. "God is love and nothing more" (by human definition) and that sort of thing. So, to illustrate the FULL revelation of God to man, we quote from the OT. Now, if you observed Reformers practicing apologetics with atheists, then you would see us quoting from the Gospels every bit as much as you ever would yourselves.
ALL scripture is God's TRUTH.
Wrong. Receiving the love of God is the key, and that love is so inextricably intertwined with His Word as found in the Holy Scriptures that they are inseparable. A person's word is so intertwined with who they are that you cannot accept the one without accepting the other.
If you have His Word as found in the Scriptures in your heart, then you have received His love. But if you reject His Word, then you have rejected His love -- and that is what matters.
And I presume that you have read the first chapter of 1 Corinthians:
And I presume that you read all the way through chapter 13 which says:
"Love rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth." [I Corinthians 13:6]
A Christian's love rejoices in the truth. What does your love rejoice in????
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