Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
FK, again I will say it is strange that you say this because it is subordinating Christ, making Him something other than God. That's why I asked if this peculiar view is something common to Protestant/Baptist christology. You agreed and I suspected that much.
Kosta: everyone was "saved" in a sense that everyone was offered a ticket to eternity who wanted it
FK: That renders the word "saved" to be meaningless, at least in the English
Before Christ no one had a way out. Every one was lost. After Christ, everyone was offered a way out. It's not English, but Protestant mindset.
According to Reformed thbeology, those who were saved by Christ were already saved from all eternity and not by anything that happened chronologically.
Paul preached that salvation is had by grace through faith, and NOT by works
And Christ didn't!!!
Kosta: Forced conversion? Forced love?
FK: I don't look at it that way, but if the choice was between that and relying on my inner goodness and how super smart I am to make the right decisions, do
Oh, that just sounds wonderful, except it has nothing to do with smarts but with ability to love, and to love God more than anything else.
I'll take being forced any day of the week. I would never be able to effect my own salvation the way you all do
Forced "love" is really rape; it's no love at all. Christ certainly does not preach forced "love."
We all know that it is possible for perfectly good Christians to have temporary lapses in faith
Is that God's doing too?
Peter proclaims Jesus to be "the Christ, the Son of the living God". This was a confession of Jesus' diviity
No it wasn't. "Son of God" is the Old Testament title for angels and Israel's kings, those who were favoirtes of God. There is nothing divine in that title. Messiah was supposed to be a man who would be king and favored by God, anointed (which is messiah means). Likewise, the term "Lord" is not only a divine title, but indicative of someone who is over you.
But then later, Peter denies Him and scatters at the time of the crucifixion. Was Peter lying? No, because Jesus validates the statement as having been revealed by the Father
Peter believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but when he saw Jesus arrested and tortured, he lost his faith, got scared and believed he was mistaken. He probably expected Jesus to smite his enemies as the OT would have it happen. But it didn't happen, so Peter backtracked.
What Jesus said, verifying Peter's statement was true. Peter spoke, thinking one thing, without realizing what he actually said. He spoke the words, but did not connect the dots.
Is there such a thing when it comes to scriptures?
Orthodox baptism involves immersing three times (baptiso means repeatedly and affecting permanent change, as opposed to bapto which means once) for obvious reasons (Father, Son, Hoy Spirit), immediately followed by the seal (chrism).
Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. One is not brought into the Church unless he or she is baptized. As Christians, we are commanded to baptize (please tell St. Paul!), no ifs and buts about it.
If God wants to save unbaptized people that's His prerogative. Not ours.
Besides, Presbyterians also baptize their infants.
The oldest Christian graves show that many of the deceased were infants. The inscriptions found on their tombstones leave little doubt that they were "servants of God."
He did not leave us scriptures. That's a Protetsant superstition.
Even that can become "hazardous" for some businesses if the law is enforced. But there is much opposition and 12-13 million illegals are quickly becoming an essential part of our economy. The consequences of this will be felt by our children. And we may experience the consequences of potential terrorists slipping inot the country through our porous borders while our leaders keep increaisng airport secuirty.
Then Jesus is not God?.. (you say)..
It's not the "hearing" and "seeing" that matters, but what you do with them.
No I did. And I still do. One does not address the crowds sitting down.
The Apostles did not from the beginning believe one and the same thing. That much is certain. They do not lie when they make that obvious in their writngs. We all grow in faith, and the Apostles were no different in that regard. Their faith was not "downloaded" complete and indexed as St. Pauls seems to claim. GThey did not really have a clear concept of just who Jesus, and their faith was not exactly rock-solid until much later.
I'm sure John's theology grew, as it does with all of us, but I maintain that his original oral teachings were consistent with his later writings
If they were, they are nothing like the teachings of others.
Your Church could have been wrong on several things, as well as other churches. Perhaps the Church that was closest to being right was stamped out by a more powerful one
Then what you believe as far as the Holy Trinity, Christology and the Bible are concerned is posisbly wrong.
Trouble is, there is no record of any other "church." As early as 105 +Ignatius speaks of the "catholic Church." All other "churches" in those days differed from the catholic Church in that their disputed or denied one or more aspects of the Holy Trinity, Christology, and scriptre (e.g. Marcion).
No I did. And I still do. One does not address the crowds sitting down.
= = =
Have you been there?
I have.
Would have been very easy for him to sit and address the crowds—just sitting on the upper side of the hill.
Had he been sitting on a prominent rock, all the easier.
I continue to be amazed at your . . . unique . . . perspectives on Biblical, historical and geographical realities.
Baseless conjecture lackng any objective proof.
When Paul speaks of "his gospel" he is perfectly clear that he is not speaking of some gospel that he made up. No, he is speaking only of that Gospel that was given to him personally by Christ
Makes you wonder why did He choose the eleven others who were on a dead-end mission to the lost sheep of Israel.
It's nice of +Paul to tell us that "his gospel" is what was given to him "personally" by Christ, but it is not what Christ taught when He was walking the earth. I doubt that Christ changed His story.
Again, if Christ needed to get another Apostle in the likes of +Paul, to disseminate the gospel, then He left His work was not finished by His death and Resurrection and His mission was not accomplished. It stands to reason that after Christ nothing can top Him, nothing can be added to His completed work; no new revelations could be made, lest Christ be made imperfect.
I am fine with "inspired", but I like "God-breathed" better. I think that better describes what is actually going on
Same meaning, that is moved, motivated, etc.
Well, be amazed then. He addreessed the disciples: "His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them saying" (Mat 5:1-2).
Again, one does not address crowds by sitting down.
Hosepipe: Then Jesus is not God?.. (you say)..
Huh? He left without handing out the Bibles.
Oh! I see what you meant.. sorry..
The old testament was enshrined in the synagogue then as it is now..
The Jews had/have a virtual shrine you know.. (as a scroll)
At least the Torah.. but prosperous community's had the prophets..
The first christians were Jews and the Gospel was repeated verbally much like the old testament was.. Still is in China where the word of god is almost contraband.. People are jailed for trafficking in it..
That being said, Jesus was and is the Word of God..
The Logos is one thing, the Rhema is quite another..
Exactly!
There is a difference between 'revealed' faith that patriarchs and prophets wrote about, and Christ's ministry on earth witnessed by the Apostles who then wrote (decades later) what they actually saw or heard either in person or from those who were there. There is a difference between what we see 'inside' and what we perceive outside.
But, regardless, God did not give us the Scriptures. He never commanded His disciples to write down what He said. In the case of the Torah, the Jews believe,m and in the case of the Koran, the Muslims believe that God dictated the books word-by-word to Moses and Mohammad. Sure...
Suppsoedly guided by the Holy Spirit, the humans wrote, and it was the hierarchy of the Church recognized, selected, safeguarded, sorted out and canonized the Scriptures. I know this must be difficult for you to swallow, but then the alternative is to throw out the Bible along with the Church.
You didn't answer my question, counselor. You deflected it to put it mildly. You and others on your side keep telling me that God tests people, not for His but for their benefit.
I asked you specifically and others in general: if you are 100% secure in your salvation (and therefore faith) why would you benefit by being tested like Job was (and he was 'blameless')?
If God tests blameless people, what benefit do they get unless it is indented to strengthen their faith? In which case you are not secure in your faith and salvation as you say you are.
Again, there was no point in testing Jesus, unless there was some 'benefit' that He would 'gain' from it as far as His faith is concerned, since there was no chance that He would fail.
But it makes perfect sense if Jesus is seen by the early Apostles to be the Jewish messiah, a mortal human, beloved of God, a favorite of God, the "son of God," like the angels and kings, a man who would be king of kings (on earth), blameless and perfect (like Job)!
And it would make perfect sense that He would be led into the Desert by the Power (Spirit) of God, as the bible teaches (God doesn't need to be led by His own Spirit!). All this points strongly to Jesus being considered a special, if not perfect human, an ideal man (which he is!), but not God!
Clearly, the Apostles recognized His divinity at a later date and realized that the words they used (e.g. "son of God") which they understood in the Old Testament manner, were words with a new meaning.
It's Christmas Eve, children, beds, sugar-plums --- and you're down under the tree with some nifty new thing for the kiddies. After 90 minutes of trying to assemble it and having it not work repeatedly, parts left over, etc. you can no longer be said to be free in any meaningful sense. Among the many desires coursing in your ind (like, consigning to eternal fire the maker of the item in question) no good one can be fulfilled.
Then an angel, or maybe your wife recovers the instructions from the wastepaper basket where you, being a very manly man, have tossed them without opening.
The Hebrew for instructions, by the way, is Torah. Just sayin'.
Sullenly you consent to lower yourself to leaf through the manual, and ... suddenly, you GET it!
The Torah, plus some action seemingly external to you, leads to illumination. Before you lies the fulfillment of your desire to complete the toy before the parousia and you are so relieved that you even whisper a brief prayer of contrition for all the things you wanted to do to the manufacturer and you actually, in words audible by natural means, apologize to your wife for snapping at her.
Now, I suggest that at that moment it never occurs to you to go back to the unenlightened, pre-torah state, to throw the instructions away and to try it your own way. It does not feel like a loss of freedom, it feels like the GIFT of freedom.
This is an inadequate, though rich, example of something being given which objectively constricts our choices but which is experienced not as rape but as freedom.
Suppsoedly guided by the Holy Spirit, the humans wrote, and it was the hierarchy of the Church recognized, selected, safeguarded, sorted out and canonized the Scriptures. I know this must be difficult for you to swallow, but then the alternative is to throw out the Bible along with the Church.
You’re correct I do not swallow that.. The Rabbis vouched safe the old testament in various forms.. The New testement codices were saved from various places.. and times.. And Roman Catholic and Eastern Ortho organizations were started hundreds of years after christs so-called “death”... A contant stream of apostles did not happen.. Its a myth promulgated by various clergy.. that some people swallow some do not..
http://www.freepres.org/papacy/index.asp
With that preamble, I suggest that the early confession of the Church was, "Jesus is Lord (kyrios)." (And Kyrios has distinct overtones in the OT reading community of the name which must not be said.)
The Church made the good confession, and then spent centuries -- may even be said still to be spending time, figuring out what it meant. It was "always believed" but what the believed thing meant was worked out over time.
Similarly, Harley, with the presence of Christ in the Sacrament. If, for kicks, we stipulate that the language of Justin and of others asserts a (non-capitalized, not in quotes) real presence of Christ in the Sacrament, then the delay of the declaration of Transubstantiation is not materially different from a grandparent saying, "Now I begin to see what I meant when I said, 'I do.' "
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