You didn't answer my question, counselor. You deflected it to put it mildly. You and others on your side keep telling me that God tests people, not for His but for their benefit.
I asked you specifically and others in general: if you are 100% secure in your salvation (and therefore faith) why would you benefit by being tested like Job was (and he was 'blameless')?
If God tests blameless people, what benefit do they get unless it is indented to strengthen their faith? In which case you are not secure in your faith and salvation as you say you are.
Again, there was no point in testing Jesus, unless there was some 'benefit' that He would 'gain' from it as far as His faith is concerned, since there was no chance that He would fail.
But it makes perfect sense if Jesus is seen by the early Apostles to be the Jewish messiah, a mortal human, beloved of God, a favorite of God, the "son of God," like the angels and kings, a man who would be king of kings (on earth), blameless and perfect (like Job)!
And it would make perfect sense that He would be led into the Desert by the Power (Spirit) of God, as the bible teaches (God doesn't need to be led by His own Spirit!). All this points strongly to Jesus being considered a special, if not perfect human, an ideal man (which he is!), but not God!
Clearly, the Apostles recognized His divinity at a later date and realized that the words they used (e.g. "son of God") which they understood in the Old Testament manner, were words with a new meaning.
With that preamble, I suggest that the early confession of the Church was, "Jesus is Lord (kyrios)." (And Kyrios has distinct overtones in the OT reading community of the name which must not be said.)
The Church made the good confession, and then spent centuries -- may even be said still to be spending time, figuring out what it meant. It was "always believed" but what the believed thing meant was worked out over time.
Similarly, Harley, with the presence of Christ in the Sacrament. If, for kicks, we stipulate that the language of Justin and of others asserts a (non-capitalized, not in quotes) real presence of Christ in the Sacrament, then the delay of the declaration of Transubstantiation is not materially different from a grandparent saying, "Now I begin to see what I meant when I said, 'I do.' "
I asked you specifically and others in general: if you are 100% secure in your salvation (and therefore faith) why would you benefit by being tested like Job was (and he was ‘blameless’)?
Faith is more than the faith that is the gift for regeneration, it is for all of salvation; regeneration, sanctification and glorification.
The trials we are speaking of are the trials of sanctification, having nothing to do whether one is born again, that state was satisfied when one trusted Christ for salvation.
John states, (1 John 3:1-3), “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”
That is the believer’s condition now.
The Psalmist says, (Psa 139:23-24), “Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if [there be any] wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.” ( Psa 26:2) “Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.”
Other writes explain the purifying trials this way.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Hebr 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
There are trials that mature one’s faith.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
There are trials that strengthen one’s faith.
Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Question arises from the comments posted here, Just what do you belive is God’s place now in His creation?
Does He lead His people?
Does He correct His people?
Does He punish His people?
Does He protect His people now?
Does He teach His people?
If so, how does He do these things?
In the vernacular, I associate myself with BD's comments. Testing helps to sanctify us during our lives. As I'm sure you are aware, Christians have very different experiences while here on earth. God is active and involved. He doesn't just sit back and "wait" (within time, plus nudging, plus chance) for the outcome of men's decisions, as the Apostolic position holds.
If God tests blameless people, what benefit do they get unless it is indented to strengthen their faith? In which case you are not secure in your faith and salvation as you say you are.
There are no blameless people, including Mary. But if you refer to the status of the elect, then testing DOES strengthen faith. Since we do not use a point system, a person with low level true faith goes to Heaven the same way a person with high level true faith does. Once a low level true faith is established by God (salvation), then sanctification begins and we move toward a higher level. This movement not only benefits us personally in our personal relationship with God, but it also makes us more useful to God to accomplish His plan for us as individuals. A fully saved person can and will always grow in Christ. At the point when that is no longer true, then it is time to be fitted for a harp. :)
Again, there was no point in testing Jesus, unless there was some 'benefit' that He would 'gain' from it as far as His faith is concerned, since there was no chance that He would fail.
One point of the temptation of Jesus was to prove to the world that He understood from first hand experience all the temptations that we face. It proved that He could relate to us on a real level with our real problems. I believe that has been a very great comfort to countless Christians through the ages.
But it makes perfect sense if Jesus is seen by the early Apostles to be the Jewish messiah, a mortal human, beloved of God, a favorite of God, the "son of God," like the angels and kings, a man who would be king of kings (on earth), blameless and perfect (like Job)!
It appears that your supposition is that the Apostles were dead wrong about Christ when they wrote what would become scripture. However, later, at some unknown time they got it right. However again, YOUR Church takes full credit for formulating the scriptures, in total error presumably, and then simply claims to fill in the error with tradition. If so, then if you sanctified this error-filled document knowingly, why should I follow any of your leaders or any group of your leaders after making such a catastrophic blunder in the first place?