Posted on 01/21/2008 3:50:05 PM PST by wagglebee
Wesley had some great sermons, and I quoted him extensively when I talked with my pastor.
I even brought in the Wesleyian (sp?) Quadrilateral (Reason, Experience, Scripture and Tradition). My pastor’s response was that Reason and Experience, while much more subjective, should have precedence over Scripture and Tradition on certain issues (e.g. homosexuality).
There’s so much good in true Methodism.
Even in "untrue" Methodism. The people tend to be nice, they educate their kids well, lead fairly clean, successful lives and have fun times fellowshipping together just as socializing. We had several divorce scandals, two of our pastors, mine which was more under the radar, no biggie in these times.
You know far more about Methodism than I ever got into. I'm sure your heartfelt efforts and passion were not in vain. My parents were very active for a few years, got involved in the Kind Deeds class, something happened, and my father got burned badly, they quit going but kept us kids going, never thought to ask what happened there.
I thought I read somewhere that when John Wesley was a circuit preacher in America, he sent the people back to the Anglican church for the sacraments. If true, that is telling because Anglicans believe more in a real presence whereas my understanding of the Methodist bread cubes and grape juice was all merely symbolic. I know John Wesley was so ardent about the poor English miners and such who became alcoholics and dragged their families down into the pits with them, so I can understand where he was coming from on that part of it.
Better not ramble on so long as I tend to do, one thought and memory leads to another.
Have you decided which direction you will go? Maybe a prayerful wilderness experience or neutral exploration of other places of worship might not be a bad thing. You don't want to be "out-of-the-frying-pan-into-the-fire" but prepared (better than I was despite taking 3 years to get through RCIA) for the realities you would be facing. There are also subtle cultural issues which can become barriers whether it is pc or not. Different groups simply do not tend to think the same even among themselves.
Pastors are not receptive to being questioned or corrected by their underlings such as what appears to have happened with you. I sat with the new Methodist minister's wife which visit was about my daughter, and she didn't want to talk about issues. So we didn't. So I am left wondering just how secure in their beliefs some of the pastors are. One of the best was an old gent from the old school who paid me a rare home visit while I was still in. That guy had real faith.
My heart goes out to you. Re the homosexuality issue, locally we tend to be back to a husband wife. For awhile there was a single female pastor. I will never condone homosexual acts, but I don't hate them or consider that orientation as being sinful in and of itself. There is that church out west where two lesbians pastor a Methodist church and have at least one child. That I couldn't handle. What happens in one part of the body affects the whole. But the point I was getting at is that the bible seemed to condone slavery (the pro-homosexual argument), we now regard that as sinful, so why not homosexuality?
It's easy for me right now. Adultery and fornication are sinful, sometimes judged more leniently depending on diminished capacity. So why would not homosexuality be at least as sinful? I can see what you are up against. If you take my position, you are a homophobe.
We prayed for a couple months, then set out looking. Ironically (or not), the first church we visited, an Evangelical Free Church, was the one we felt consistently called back to visit again. And it’s the one we decided on joining. The sermons rock, and are practically mini Bible studies, and there’s no fear from the Pastoral staff to tackle the tough issues of the day, and they do so in a way that doesn’t tackle the people.
The UMC Pastor was very open to our questions, and was even brought to tears by the disagreement. It’s not easy being a Pastor, something I often forget.
On the homosexuality issue, I admit that I have sins in my life just as insulting to God. But I do my best to recognize, repent, and eliminate the sin from my life. I don’t have a problem with homosexual membership in a church, if sinners aren’t welcome in church, it’s going to be a lonely place.
But you are dead on with the “homophobe” attacks. The Kansas East Conference actually suggested updating the Social Discipline on Homosexuality with language condemning “homophobes,” as if labelling is something the church should endorse as an official position.
My favorite was a petition, failed at conference, to forbid SMU to build a President Bush library. Is that really what official church business on matters of doctrin and teaching need to address?
Sermons and homilies rarely do much for me, occasionally one hits home. I attribute that to my having had to go it on my own for most of my life and can read as good or better in a book.
Yes, we all have sins for sure. Guess I don't want to go into which are the worst ones.
I appreciate your sharing about your experience.
No two EFCs are alike, so it’s important to check them out. Most that I saw tend to be Bible Churches, with heavy focus on scripture during the sermon. Right now we’re in a series of sermons going through the second half of Romans (the first part was covered previously). Really intense, and they work in how it ties to the Gospels and OT. I actually learn a lot during the sermons.
On the sins, my specific feelings were that I can’t differentiate my “lifestyle” sin from homosexuality. I have twice in my life been suicidal, and struggle mightily with depression. I can’t say that’s any less of a sin. At some levels I believe it to be a worse sin. I acknowledge it as such and do my best to transform my life away from it and closer to what God wants me to be.
I really enjoy talking with you on this.
Here’s the link to the church I’m joining: http://www.ccefc.org/s/index.cfm?SSID=26
That shows all the different sermon subjects and speakers, and if you click on them, you can get the downloadable audio.
Some of those audios look interesting, especially the supernatural one, thank you, I bookmarked them.
We have more in common than I thought as I've suffered like you for years. It does tend to color our perceptions and makes conflicts worse. I noticed that some of the things related to church, conflicting teachings, hypocrisy, unfairness, confusion, etc., bothered me less when I was not so depressed. When I wasn't depressed, I had more going in my life and tended to blow off or rationalize the things that normal churchgoers don't worry about which I did because I took it so seriously, not to say that others didn't. Much of it was for the social aspect, habitual, routine, just a way of life.
So often I went into church feeling bad and came out feeling worse, that shouldn't be, and most of it had to be me, but there are still conflicts I doubt I'll ever get resolved and have learned to live with it. I almost lost my faith altogether. Now some of it is starting to be rekindled, and I still pray but not like I used to. I can't say I don't need church, that would be unscriptural.
Supernatural is the one we’re currently going through, and is pretty good. I walk out of sermon with a page full of notes.
There are some good ones sprinkled throughout. The head pastor does a good job of describing both sides of conflicting Christian positions (e.g. pacifism vs. just war theory) but also makes clear his own understanding. He certainly doesn’t shy away from anything.
I love the podcasts, they make great audio for the morning commute. That and Ravi Zacharias podcasts, great stuff there.
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