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Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music
The Telegraph ^
| 21/11/2007
| Malcolm Moore
Posted on 11/23/2007 4:01:21 AM PST by Gamecock
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1
posted on
11/23/2007 4:01:21 AM PST
by
Gamecock
To: Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; irishtenor; P-Marlowe; xzins
Best quote coming out of the Vatican in some time:
Due to general ignorance, especially in sectors of the clergy....
2
posted on
11/23/2007 4:04:46 AM PST
by
Gamecock
(Gamecock: Declared anathema by the Council of Trent!)
To: Gamecock
Why is it the Pope can purge the Church of modern music but he can't purge it of modern ideas like evolution?
Maybe Darwin's words set to Gregorian Chant would be the ultimate expression of Catholicism?
3
posted on
11/23/2007 4:22:16 AM PST
by
Zionist Conspirator
(Lo' Ya`aqov ye'amer `od shimkha ki-'im Yisra'el; ki-sariyta `im-'Eloqim ve`im-'anashim vatukhal.)
To: Zionist Conspirator
Let’s not forget about the 80% of American Catholics who disagree with the Pope on birth control.
4
posted on
11/23/2007 4:45:26 AM PST
by
Gamecock
(Gamecock: Declared anathema by the Council of Trent!)
To: Gamecock
Gregorian chant or Praise music, which one could I do without? Does the Pope consider the Hallelujah Chorus by Handel to be modern music? If this is the case, he is right on course with his trip to the Turkish mosque or his statement about Protestants not being real Christians.
5
posted on
11/23/2007 5:09:07 AM PST
by
Dixie Yooper
(Ephesians 6:11)
To: Gamecock
I like modern praise music.
6
posted on
11/23/2007 6:00:21 AM PST
by
Greg F
(Duncan Hunter is a good man.)
To: Dixie Yooper
I think that you misunderstand the place of music in the Catholic liturgy. Properly we should not be singing AT the liturgy, but rather singing THE LITURGY. Music at the liturgy is meant to support the words of the prayers. Thus the distinction between sacred music and religious music.
As for Handel's Hallelujah, being a fan of classical music, I am sure that Pope Benedict is a great fan. This does not mean that is should be sung at a liturgy. At a special concert in praise of God, by all means!
his statement about Protestants not being real Christians.
The Pope never said that Protestants were not real Christians, but rather that their ecclesial gatherings were not true churches. This flows from the Catholic belief that a church is a divine institution based upon Apostolic succession of Holy Orders and centered around the Eucharist (neither of which most Protestants claim they have). It is a question of Sacramental theology. As for being a real Christian, this comes from Baptism. Provided that the proper matter and form are used, the Catholic Church does indeed recognize that baptized Protestants are real Christians.
7
posted on
11/23/2007 6:09:43 AM PST
by
Petrosius
To: Petrosius
It seems to me that a liturgy can be so out of date that it is an impediment to real worship. The Protestant churches have been having a transition to modern musical styles from the great hymns of the 1800’s and early 1900’s . . . traditionalists and older congregants like the old hymns because the words are so theologically sound and meaningful and the younger church members want music that they enjoy. When you freeze music for 100’s of years though, in my opinion, it becomes at best an acquired taste and at worst a form of worship that no longer leads to actual worship but just rote repetition . . .
8
posted on
11/23/2007 6:35:45 AM PST
by
Greg F
(Duncan Hunter is a good man.)
To: Petrosius
As for Handel's Hallelujah, being a fan of classical music, I am sure that Pope Benedict is a great fan. This does not mean that is should be sung at a liturgy. At a special concert in praise of God, by all means!
Beat me to it - the Hallelujah Chorus, and indeed the whole of Messiah, is a gorgeous piece of music...but it is not liturgical music and would be utterly out of place at Mass.
To: Greg F
It seems to me that a liturgy can be so out of date that it is an impediment to real worship.
I agree - and the new Missal (issued 1969) was just such an out of date liturgy by about 1970.
The point is not about old/new music - it's about proper and fitting music. Plainchant is not out of date because it has never been "in date", its timelessness is an essential part of it. I've attended Mass where Arvo Paert's Berliner Messe was sung as the Ordinary - this music was written around 1990 - modern music can be good.
To: Greg F
There is a common misconception about the place of music in Catholic worship. This is not just limited to Protestants; Catholics too, today, do not understand the role of music in the liturgy.
Unfortunately, in the rush to replace Latin with the vernacular in the Mass, Catholics were cut off from their musical heritage. The need of instant music in English after Vatican II led to the adoption of singing hymns at the Mass, first old Protestant tunes then newly composed ones. However, if you were to study the liturgy you would find that where we have introduced these hymns (the Entrance, Offertory, Communion) should actually be a sung Psalm with Antiphon. Additionally, the Ordinary of the Mass (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) should also be sung. In all these places the words take precedence over the music which leads to a different musical style than in hymns were the meter leads the music. Furthermore, none of these are an independent pieces acting as a musical interlude as do hymns is a Protestant service. Thus the creation of Gregorian chant which is proper to the Roman liturgy. Different music for different purposes.
To: Petrosius
Singing Psalms is wonderful . . . if you understand the language it’s being sung in!
12
posted on
11/23/2007 7:55:09 AM PST
by
Greg F
(Duncan Hunter is a good man.)
To: Greg F
Singing Psalms is wonderful . . . if you understand the language its being sung in! Catholic schools teach English so the people can read the translation in the Latin-English Missals. Latin was also once widely taught, in Protestant schools as well as Catholic ones, so more people could once understand it than you think. Latin was once, and should be again, a common cultural heritage in the West whose use was not limited to the liturgy.
To: Petrosius
Yes, I’m sure they discussed that a bit at Vatican II . . . at some point though the old common languages just die and are replaced with new ones. Greek, Latin, French, English . . . what’s next? Pray it’s not Chinese!
14
posted on
11/23/2007 8:13:47 AM PST
by
Greg F
(Duncan Hunter is a good man.)
To: Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg
I don’t ‘spose Mercy Me will be invited to the Vatican anytime soon, will they?
And surely not the Reformed Bob Dylan.
15
posted on
11/23/2007 8:28:45 AM PST
by
xzins
(Retired Army Chaplain. True Supporters of the Troops will pray for US to Win!)
To: Greg F
I’m with you. Sorry, monotonous hymns with an organ and religious traditional music in other tongues just doesn’t bring me into the presence of God.
16
posted on
11/23/2007 8:35:13 AM PST
by
ovrtaxt
(You're a destiny that God wrapped a body around.)
To: FloreatIacobus; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg
Handel’s music would also be very Lutheran.
That just might be a show-stopper.
17
posted on
11/23/2007 8:35:15 AM PST
by
xzins
(Retired Army Chaplain. True Supporters of the Troops will pray for US to Win!)
To: Gamecock
the organ and organ playing like in a second-rank country parish church."
We should just forbid those country parishes from singing altogether.
Just a bunch of stupid farmers -- I say just excise the whole batch. Then we don't have to worry about their wretched music!
18
posted on
11/23/2007 8:37:09 AM PST
by
xzins
(Retired Army Chaplain. True Supporters of the Troops will pray for US to Win!)
To: xzins; Dr. Eckleburg
I’ve heard that Alice Copper is now Calvinist.
19
posted on
11/23/2007 8:52:37 AM PST
by
Gamecock
(Gamecock: Declared anathema by the Council of Trent!)
To: Gamecock
Alice Cooper a Calvinist?
I hadn’t heard that.
I’d be careful, though, if he wants to play a Chicken Dance at a Calvinist Wedding. :>)
20
posted on
11/23/2007 9:02:37 AM PST
by
xzins
(Retired Army Chaplain. True Supporters of the Troops will pray for US to Win!)
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