Posted on 11/15/2007 12:42:48 PM PST by Semper
I am pro-life (contrary to what many might perceive). I believe pro-life also means pro-God. I also think it is very important to be consistent in this position. And there is also the matter of understanding the total nature of Life and God – which is beyond our capacity in this human condition. So, those of you who believe you have the absolute truth regarding this matter, please don’t waste your time responding to this, just continue on healing the masses and ascending to heaven.
I know “pro-life” is mostly associated with anti-abortion or also, restricting the choice of a pregnant woman to continue with that condition or not. Now there is an important distinction here. I do not support abortion – especially to avoid the consequences of one’s actions. But, I do support a woman’s right and responsibility to determine what is best for herself, her family and her potential offspring. That position will be branded as not “pro-life” by some (many of whom are influenced by someone else’s religious interpretation). That is fine. As I have expressed, we do not have sufficient knowledge to know for sure what is “God’s will”. But to use our God-given reasoning powers, how can we initiate and support war, with it attendant death - of those already living in this world and call ourselves “pro-life” unless we understand one of the most important elements of life to be FREEDOM (Give me liberty or give me death). Freedom means the ability to make wrong decisions. It also means that we have the right to try to influence (not require) that correct decisions be made where there is not direct negative impact on others operating in this world.
I wrote an essay for another thread (entitled Abortion) which resulted in several very impressive responses. There is much to be said regarding the elimination of abortion – which will probably happen but not soon. There is also much to be said for the freedom and responsibility of choice. One of the questions I posed to a woman who chose to give birth at the risk of depriving her family of a wife and mother (a most impressive adherence to principle) was: If you would be consistent, how can you not work with all you have to stop war. If there are not exceptions to stopping a life not yet manifested in this world, how can you have an exception for an activity which kills those who are already living in this world?
It seems consistent that all absolute “pro-life” adherents should band together and demand an end to our waging of war – no matter what the consequences. But we seem always to allow almost anything for preservation of our freedom – unless it applies to a pregnant woman. Someone please tell me how a potential human in early development, not yet manifested in this world is more important than a human being, with a history, a family, a promising future who is killed in war.
Abortion and war do have similarities.
Abortion has a child smack dab in the middle of the crosshairs.
Just war has uninvolved, and presumed innocent, civilians off to the side of the scope with unjust aggressors smack dab in the middle of the crosshairs.
That is about as similar as dissimilar can be.
Cain killed Abel and warfare between human beings began.
If a mother cam kill her own child, the seeds of warfare will be sown by the millions into the next generation.
The late Dr. Conrad Baars, psychiatrist, wrote in his book “Healing the Unaffirmed”: “Abortion is a form of psychic self-destruction, and if practiced on a large scale it will have the gravest consequences for any society which condones it. Abortion is an act of aggression. Abortion is the ultimate denial of the child and the mother....abortion provokes a depression which, in our experience, is malignant and incurable.”
This makes clear that abortion plants the seeds that lead to warfare—just as Mother Teresa said it does.
My Lord and my God-—millions of babies looking forward to life, on the ash-heap, sacrificed to the gods of Molloch.
War is punishment for the sins of man, not the cause of them.
Just because words are in sequence does not necessarily require that they are unequal. Happiness can not be pursued without liberty and some believe that life is not valid without liberty ("Give me liberty or give me death"). Patrick Henry seemed to believe in the equality of at least life and liberty and we hold him to be an American hero.
If you think words don't mean anything, I pity you.
Luke 22:35 says, "And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing." This is Jesus talking to his disciples. "Then he said unto them, But now,..." This is a big But now, so pay attention because Jesus is getting his disciples ready to minister on this earth without him. These are final instructions before he heads to the cross for our sins. "But now, He that hath a purse, let him take it,..." Keep your money with you. "...And likewise his scrip:..." That is your Bible. "...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36) That's right, your weapon is more important than the clothes on your back. "For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me,..." Jesus is speaking of his own death. He said, "Now look, I have to die, but you don't". "... And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end." (Luke 22:37) That's his earthly ministry.
Now liberals will always say that the word sword refers to the Bible, but it obviously doesn't as he mentions this in scrip.
So why would Jesus want us to sell the shirt off our back to buy a weapon?
I see your responses are all over the board and you contradict yourself in your replies and you are usually incorrect, but I'll be happy to try and help you grasp the true Christian foundation that supports "pro-life" movements as well as killing people in war.
FRegards,
DocRock
Those killed in war have been experiencing this human environment. Those who have been aborted were virtually unaware of this human environment and since I believe that God is infinitely more powerful than mankind, I believe that if that unborn child is meant to be here, that will happen in one way or another.
I don't believe that our existence starts when an egg is fertilized - that is a human function; God is spiritual and He is our Source, not a material human function. Likewise, I do not believe our existence ceases when we experience human death. If we are eternal (as God's children were created) then we have no beginning and no ending - only changes of environment and experience, ultimately realizing our spiritual nature.
So why would Jesus want us to sell the shirt off our back to buy a weapon?
One possibility is that in those times, a sword was not just for war, it was a tool for personal protection against the elements, etc. and almost all men carried them.
Also, having a sword and using it for war is not the same thing. In some cases, conflicts and even wars are prevented because the opponent is well armed and it is decided that the possible consequences are not worth the fight.
Because we value the right to bear arms does not necessarily mean that we believe in waging war.
There are probably other possibilities but we have no explanation from Jesus regarding what exactly that meant so you can believe what you want. The totality of Jesus' teachings lead me to believe he did not condone war.
The founders of this great Republic gave us the phrase
"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"
Let me put a finer point on this.
One can pursue happiness, if they do not possess liberty.
One can not have liberty, if some one takes their life.
It is not a matter of "being discarded because they are unable to fend for themselves".
Yes, it is. That's exactly the argument you made about when someone becomes a person. If you were consistent, you would argue that abortion deliberately robs innocents of life an is therefore more evil than a war that is not intended to harm innocents.
War, you would add, is also evil because it harms innocents unavoidably.
Do you believe that Jesus is God? If so, then re-read my Post number 4. If you don't believe Jesus was God, then we should just agree to disagree.
This juxaposition of abortion and war is ultimately unhelpful to forming a judgment about either one.
If “we” had no beginning, how is it you call God “our Source” or Creator?
Yes and no. I believe that Jesus was a manifestation of God in this world. I don't understand how an infinite spiritual Source could be confined to a human body. I believe God to be the infinite, spiritual Principle of Life from which all true existence is derived. I believe Jesus was the son of God, a "child" of God who existed here in human form to teach us the Truth of existence. He said that if we believe what he taught, we could do the things that he did and more. I think to truly believe, you must first have faith but you must also eventually develop understanding. The work of understanding what Jesus taught is a most difficult task. It is equally difficult and important to apply that understanding to your life. I believe that both abortion and war must be overcome. But it is critically important that we follow Jesus' example and not force those decisions upon humanity but lead humanity to freely choose correctly.
I will try to answer that with an analogy - maybe not perfect but possibly helpful.
Numbers exist because of the principle of mathematics. Numbers conform to mathematical laws (2+2=4). Numbers have no restriction of where or when they exist - they did not begin at some point and will not end at some point. There is no limit as to where those numbers can manifest (become apparent) or in what form - there can be two (or whatever) galaxies, or comets, or planets or molecules, now, or a thousand years from now or before. The number 2 or 7 or whatever can manifest anywhere, any time. There is no limit to numbers (tell me what is the highest or lowest number). Numbers can not be destroyed (if you eliminate 2 of anything, did you eliminate the number 2?) Those numbers exist because of their source, mathematics. I believe there can be an analogy between that concept of mathematics and "its children", numbers, and God and His children, us. We are infinite in quantity; we are eternal; we have the potential to exist anywhere (spiritually) - we happen to be only aware of our existence here in this human, earthly environment but that does not mean there is not infinitely more.
In this analogy, the principle of mathematics "created" numbers. And God's Principle of Life "created" us. In both cases, that creation did not require limitations of time or space or material. When we speak of the spirit of something we are referring to its essence. Our essence is Spiritual, without limit and eternal.
To state it another way, we exist because God exists. God is eternal without beginning or ending, therefore so are we. God is the Cause and we are the effect. That is my proof of the existence of God. You can't have an effect without a Cause and there is no way human beings caused existence, we are a result of existence.
The way you present your view of Jesus could be interpreted that you consider Him a son of God in the same manner that we ordinary humans are sons of God. In that case, He would NOT be Savior, Redeemer, Messiah or Emmanuel (meaning God with us).
This is New Age philosophy.
I completely disagree. It is all about who chooses. Both war and abortion are almost always wrong - who chooses is all that is left.
To be consistent, since war is evil, also resulting in the death of innocents, then does it not matter who chooses that?
Our constitution prescribes that the country's decision to go to war must be made by the congress. Our founding fathers must have felt that who chooses makes a difference. It is interesting that the process has been perverted. It was mostly our president who took us to war in Iraq - congress did not declare war, it just resolved to snivel off that responsibility to the president.
It might be good to get the process for war decisions corrected before we meddle with family and personal decisions in circumstances we know little or nothing about.
There are a great many people in this country that see the responsibility for an abortion decision to be with the woman who is pregnant. They will vote to preserve that choice and that may result in leadership that will do substantial harm to this country. It may be counterproductive to make abortion a political issue.
No, I do not see Jesus as the same as we ordinary humans. I do see him as the Savior. What he is saving us from is the ordinary human consciousness which separates us from Him.
From my post 66 above...
"I see your responses are all over the board and you contradict yourself in your replies and you are usually incorrect, but I'll be happy to try and help you grasp the true Christian foundation that supports "pro-life" movements as well as killing people in war."
[snip]
I believe Jesus was the son of God, a "child" of God who existed here in human form to teach us the Truth of existence.
I believe the Bible. Every word. You have been tested according to I John 4.
Reading this post causes me to wonder: is the real problem for you in all of this exchange actually President Bush?
Not all wars are evil.
The most pious man cannot remain at peace if his neighbor has evil intentions.
Nonsense. You're compartmentalizing. The woman only made the final decision. Well, actually the doctor did. But up until that point the country decided it was okay to kill. People debated. Legislators legislated. Judges ruled. Technologies were developed. Industries were created. People today propagandize over the right or wrong of abortion. The womans decision is but one of the final steps in a long and complicated process.
Likewise, the killing of an innocent civilian is one of the last steps in an equally long and complicated process.
Our country does not want to give up its right to choose about war (ie. to the UN). It seems consistent to allow pregnant women the right to choose about abortion.
Apples to oranges. A soldier goes to war and could be asked to kill. BUT he also knowingly puts his life on the line when asked. He may be asked to sacrifice his own life. In abortion it's not about self sacrifice, it's always about killing something else. That's why war should be a choice and abortion shouldn't.
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