Joseph Smith: Creator of the Fourth Abrahamic Faith; Mormonism

Auhtor's website ^ | September 15, 2007 | G. Richard Jansen

[JoshM99]

Smith published his translation in 1830 and the angel Moroni subsequently took the plates back.

Kinda makes you wonder WHY? doesn’t it.

______________________________

Could be to have people rely on faith and testimony about the divinity of the Book of Mormon.

Smith also has said that the plates will be returned as his translation was only of a 1/3 portion of the gold plates and that a translation of the remaining 2/3 would be given to man one day.

[MHGinTN]

Let us know how mocking God works for ya.

[JRochelle]

Names. You must name names!

[Utah Binger]

Move along, nothing to see here......

[Domandred]

You claim yourself God now? T’was you whom he mocks.

[TheDon]

Let us know how mocking God works for ya.

Wow! You think rather highly of yourself! Hmmmm... it does explain alot about you however. :-)

[JRochelle]

Hey!

Thats my line.

[Terabitten]

I’ve always wondered why the “works aren’t needed” crowd even bother. If works aren’t required, shouldn’t they just throw their Bibles away and party? After all, they are saved, and nothing they can do will help out.

Allow me to explain it this way, speaking purely of my earthly father.

My father and I are very close. I love my Dad. My Dad loves me. Nothing I can do (or ever did, for that matter) *made* him love me - he chose to love me of his own accord. He could have left me outside on that cold November morning when I was born, but he didn't - he chose to love me and to be the best father that a kid could have.

So, today, when my dad asks me to do something, I do everything in my power to do it. As an adult child, I don't obey my father because I have to, but because I want to. Sometimes, I'm unable or unwilling to do what my dad wants. It doesn't change my love for him, or his love for me.

It's the same with God. God loves us because He chose to, not because of what we do or did. I obey Him (do good works) because He told me to, and I love Him. So, works aren't *needed,* but they're a logical outflowing of a Christian's love for the Father.

[Barney Gumble]

You wrote: ...the RCC doesn't recognize Baptist baptisms... You're going to have to source that... good luck.

I don't have an issue... I was just giving you a source. When you wrote good luck it seemed like you thought it would be impossible to find.

[Utah Binger]

Sorry I was just taking a short rest and couldn’t think of anything else to say.

LOL

[JRochelle]

You couldn’t think of anything else to say?

All I asked for was a few names.

Is that so hard?

:-)

[pgyanke]

You are confused.

Post #64 by rface to fishtank:

The RCC does NOT recognize the Mormon baptism as valid, IIRC.

not surprised.....the RCC doesn't recognize Baptist baptisms, and the Baptists don't recognize RCC baptisms......actuallt, Baptists have a dificult time recognizing ANY Baptisms ....and I wonder if the RCC recognize other Baptisms (I don't know that answer).

My post in response to rface:

...the RCC doesn't recognize Baptist baptisms...

You're going to have to source that... good luck.

... and the Baptists don't recognize RCC baptisms...

This is true.

...and I wonder if the RCC recognize other Baptisms (I don't know that answer).

The Church doesn't "rebaptize" those who have been baptized in the Trinitarian formula.

----------------

rface said that the RCC doesn't recognize Baptist baptisms... I told him he would have a hard time sourcing that because it wasn't true.

What you gave me was a reference to Mormon baptism... that wasn't the discussion.

Please refrain from posting to me again on this subject. The merry-go-round is dizzying.

[MHGinTN]

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

John 6:28&29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[DelphiUser]

1) First, you might want to inform DelphiUser that there's quite a few parallel passages between the Gospels and the BoM; it seemed to be under the impression that wasn't the case.

LOL! Theres nothing like misrepresenting someone's position, especially without sources, Oh well.

The Book of Mormon Quotes from Isaiah, but gives attribution, and has a sermon given by the resurrected Christ similar to the sermon on the mount in the 3rd Nephi Chapter 12 I believe my stated position was that it should not be surprising that God speaking to two widely separated groups of people might just teach the same things. Mormons believe God is consistent, not only East to West and North to South, as well as forward and backward in time for he is not bound by time and does not "Change", thus his teachings will be very similar adapted only to those to whom he is speaking.

[I think I could teach an entire class of: Book of Mormon passages glossed right over by Mormons]

We could also have a year-long classes on the scriptures from the Bible Orthodox Christians "Gloss right over". However, we won't because we are not attacking Orthodox Christians, we try hard not to fight back while defending ourselves. Attacking people who are trying hard not to fight fire with fire really does not make your side look good, you know what I mean?

The simple answer is that religion cannot be proved "Logically" or religion itself it would be of no use, requiring no faith.

There is a way, a perfect way, a way created by God, a way described in the Bible and the Book of Mormon to know if the Book of Mormon is the word of God. those who believe the bible (not believe in, believe what it says) The Bible says to try the spirits, to Ask him, the Book of Mormon promises an answer from God to those who pray with real intent. We call this putting our religion to "The Test"

If anti Momrons honestly believe that God answers prayers, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints (nicknamed Mormons) is a false church, they will join me in encouraging everyone to Get a free Book of Mormon, Read, or Get and read a Bible, start reading Both, pray about Both, Believe what the Bible says that God will answer your prayers, and you will know if the Book of Mormon is the word of God or not. God cannot be out maneuvered by some 19th century con artist, God can tell you if something is true, or a copy of truth with lies embedded, God can tell you the Isaiah passages are true (for they are from the Bible) and the rest is false if that is true. God can also tell you the Book of Mormon was brought forth by his power and represents a significant addition to our knowledge of him. IMHO anyone who tells you that God can't or won't answer your prayers has no business telling you about God.

In post 299, he says: LDS doctrine does not teach to worship Jesus Christ...

Conclusion? Nope, NO worship of Jesus Christ!

I don't care if anyone did say this, "Saying it don't make it true", and it's not true.

What you are trying to do is disassemble the Godhead (an actual word used in the KJV Bible) to make it incompatible with the Trinity which is not in the KJV Bible anywhere. The God head and the trinity differ in one and only one significant thing, God and Christ are separate beings, not of the "Same substance" as the Trinity postulates.

This is actually a very simple thing, the trinity says God = Christ in actual substance.

The God head says God and Jesus are who they say they are God is the Father, Jesus is his only begotten son, they are one in heart might mind and strength We worship God, we worship Jesus, we worship the Holy ghost, but they are one God to us, for we worship the God head. This is exactly Biblical, God and Jesus Christ are "one" the bible says this many times, Jesus gave us a definition of "Oneness" that he and the father enjoy in the great intercessory prayer, Jesus says:
The Gospel According to St John Chapter 17

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

(Emphasis added by me) Anyone who can read John 17, and look at how Jesus Talked with his father, and see the relationship which he compared to the relationship the disciples were to have and thinks that Jesus and God are the same substance, must believe that Jesus is a liar, there was no reason for him to say the things he did here if he and God are the same thing, unless it was to mislead us into believing he and God are not "of the same substance", but are separate entities that are so unified in purpose that they are almost indistinguishable from each other.

I and Mormons like me believe the Bible, we believe in the Bible, we believe the interpretation must be correct for their are many interpretations. There are even some who twist the Bible to fit with their traditions, thus they believe, honestly believe, they are doing what is right, while they are mistaken.

My advice is to ask God, not men.

[JoshM99]

Then we will have to agree to disagree. One of the important distinctions in Mormon belief over other Christian faiths is the revelation that God the Father has a tangible body as does His Son, Jesus Christ. It is also clear that God is distinct from His Son, as manifested at Jesus’ baptism and again in Joseph Smith’s First Vision. If we are created in God’s image then why would he not have a body?

Do you accept that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament? The I am? It is this same Jesus that formed the earth, under His Father’s direction.

God is omniscient and omnipotent, I cannot deny. Further, His influence is carried through the Holy Spirit. This “dimensionally manifesting at differing levels of complexity” only serves to confuse the true nature of God. If He is omniscient and omnipotent, having a body will not diminish these abilities in the least, nor require dimensional manifestations at different levels of complexity.

The LDS faithful also know it is necessary to be born again of the spirit. A very significant speech was given by King Benjamin in the book of Mosiah. Being born again is the renewal or rebirth of the spirit. I know not of the resurrection of the spirit. The only resurrection I know of is that given to all the children of God, which is the reunion of the spirit with the mortal tabernacle, turning corruptible into incorruptible. The resurrection as has been pointed out will be either to the resurrection of the damned or the resurrection of the saved, but all are resurrected.

[TheDon]

for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap

These scriptures sure sound like man has to do some works to receive salvation, with all that diligent seeking and sowing and all.

[TheDon]

Well said.

[DelphiUser]

Well said, thanks for pining me to your comment.

Personally, I'll even take Hillary lite (Rudy) over Hillary.

I hereby pledge to vote for the best conservative on the general ballot regardless of support on FR. This will mean that anyone opposing Hillary will get my vote.

Libertarians, while I agree with you on some points, on others you are too "out there", and you have no prayer of winning. To top it off, this is too important an election to split conservatives off into small ineffective groups.

I hope when the electoral day of reckoning comes, that all FReepers will pull together on the lever for the best the GOP can put forward. (puns fully intended)

[TheDon]

It's the same with God. God loves us because He chose to, not because of what we do or did. I obey Him (do good works) because He told me to, and I love Him. So, works aren't *needed,* but they're a logical outflowing of a Christian's love for the Father.

That explains the point I was making about those who think works are not required for salvation, i.e. faith, repentance, baptism, etc. Since God loves you know matter what you do, and will therefore save you, why not just party and have a great time!

[MHGinTN]

"The only resurrection I know of is that given to all the children of God, which is the reunion of the spirit with the mortal tabernacle, turning corruptible into incorruptible. The resurrection as has been pointed out will be either to the resurrection of the damned or the resurrection of the saved, but all are resurrected."
It is apparent the contradictory nature of those two sentences has escape your attention. The Children of God will not be resurrected to damnation, but there will be so many who will be resurrected to damnation. You see, the Children of God have God's spirit in them, the damned do not. That Spirit comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. A saved person living around you is already alive eternally because eternal LIFE dwells in their human spirit as The Holy Spirit of God by His promise. It is God in you both to will and to do of His good please, not you doing 'all that you can do' to earn His Grace. A fool in an earlier post seeking gamesmanship rather than the mind of God (as spoken by His Word) asked why believers in Salvation by Faith alone would behave themselves and not just do anything their flesh lusts for. I trust you understand why a faither in Jesus Christ does not 'just do anything the flesh lusts for.'