Posted on 11/14/2007 8:28:07 AM PST by fortcollins
But I do not believe nor have I ever found scriptural support for Satan answering a prayer to God, instead of God.
Why then do the scriptures exhort us to "test the spirits ... to see whether they be of God" ?1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.I invite all Christians to praise Him here, but I don't believe it necessary to "defend" your faith against a challenge from those who are mislead. If any care to take up the challenge of reading the Book of Mormon and asking God its truth, please do so. But be aware that if you receive a message that it is NOT true, you will be told by Mormons that YOU failed in some way.
If your goal is to receive an answer, and you do not, have you not failed?
It looks like he said that he did receive an answer ... that the Book of Mormon ... was NOT reliably true. So, it was the Book of Mormon which fails the test of truth. Even as the Koran ... fails the test of truth.
IF my Goal was to read the Bible and know that Jesus is God, and I stop reading before I finish and don't receive that knowledge, have I not failed ?
If the truth is not there ... and I (therefore) do not find it ... I certainly have not failed.
You know ... for all of the time that I have known of the Mormons ... I have been receptive to God's leading as to it's truth ... or lack thereof.
To-date ... God has only confirmed to me how unreliable it is as a source of truth.
What follows is my first reading from the Book of Mormon.
All I did was to randomly open the book ... and my eyes immediately fell upon the following ...Mormon 9:[31] Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.
[32] And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.
[33] And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.
DU, you keep expecting that readers will accept the implication that Joseph Smith actually received "a testimony from God".I am sorry, I fail to find an actual testimony there to accept or deny.
We DON'T! And those of us that have taken your so-called "test" did not receive a testimony that the BOM is true or that Smith was a Prophet, rather, the message was the opposite.
Yes, Mod - Please let his post stand!
I thank you, Moderator for your wise decision in letting DUser’s words speak loudly!
I've been viewing these "testimony" posts exchanges with interest but haven't weighed in on this topic on any thread til now.
When the Bible repeats itself almost word for word, it means "pay special attention." Solomon, the wisest man in the Old Testament, did that by repeating in Prov. 16:25 what he wrote in Prov. 14:12: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."
(It'd be real interesting to see/hear a Latter-day saint acknowledge that for once...that feelings and inner "certainties" can lead to death)
Solomon knew how feelings could be especially misleading. And he didn't stop there. In Prov. 12:15, he wrote: "The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice." (Solomon elsewhere also lauds receiving the counsel of MANY--instead of just taking the word of ONE 14 yo boy...LDS prophets have already said that everything stands or falls on ONE man--Smith).
Also, in Prov. 18:17, he wrote: "The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him."
For example, a Mormon missionary who gets to a South Pacific Islander first may have the inner pathway, but the young missionary, when appropriately questioned, may suddenly begin to lose his case.
And the fact that it's gotten heavy into this area, what I call the final frontier--the Last Stand--for Mormons generally is quite interesting. It tells me we've come to the stage of "Don't confuse me with the facts; I've got my feelings to rely upon, thank you."
I've seen it many times, and heard others describe it many times. When LDS are backed into a corner, what they'll flail out with is "I bear you my testimony that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God, that..."
And it's right here in this kind of phrasing that shows you this is NOT the gospel of the Bible. IF THE MOST IMPORTANT TESTIMONY TO CONVEY IS ONE THAT WASN'T ON THIS PLANET TIL 1830--TIL 1800 YEARS AFTER CHRIST'S INCARNATIONAL PRESENCE HERE, THEN SOMETHING IS DEEPLY, DEEPLY WRONG AND MISGUIDED AND MISDIRECTED ABOUT SUCH A RELIGIOUS SYSTEM. WAKE UP! (Smell the coffee beans created by Jesus, not by Smith)
This leads then to the natural question. What IS the most important testimony to convey? Don't trust me for the answer; read the following from Jesus' beloved apostle, John:
(7) For there are three that testify: (8) the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. (9)We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given ABOUT HIS SON (10)Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given ABOUT HIS SON. (11)And this is the testimony: God HAS given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (12)He who HAS the Son HAS life; he who does not HAVE the Son of God does not HAVE life. (13)I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life. (14)This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. (15)And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him. (1 John 5:7-15)
So, to sum up:
(1) LDS overweigh their personal testimony at the expense of God's testimony...1 John 5:7-8 (the Spirit, who uses the Word; the blood, which was importantly shed on Calvary, not just sweated in Gethsemane which is where LDS say the atonement took place; and the water).
(2) "I bear you witness..." cannot compare to "I, God, bear you witness..." God's testimony is greater than man's (1 John 5:9)...it'd be nice for LDS to acknowledge that for once.
(3) LDS misdirect their testimony to a man who lived 1800 years after Jesus Christ, thereby overshadowing Christ and his cross of Calvary (note that cross & Calvary are notably missing from just about all semblences of LDS meeting places and hymns). John, twice (1 John 5:9-10), says this true testimony is ABOUT HIS SON...It's not about Joseph!!!
(4) Note that the testimony that LDS offer, either here on this thread, or an LDS missionary at your door, doesn't promise present-tense eternal life. Re-read 1 John 5:11-13 and note the "Has" references and the "HAVE" references; "eternal life" isn't the 3 degrees of glory...John 17:3 makes it clear that eternal life=knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ, which can happen right here, right now. For LDS, eternal life is something ONLY future tense (for Christians, it's past, present, and future).
(5) Finally, 1 John 5:14-15 is the context needed for James 1:5. We need to ask according to his will. I don't think asking thousands of times, "Is this your word?" over each & every verse in the Quran, is his will. I don't think asking about the Urantia UFO book, "Is this your word?" is his will. I don't think asking about Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible, "Is this your word?" is his will. I don't think asking about Bhagavida & Hindu texts, "Is this your word?" is his will.
Beloved saints, if you haven't realized it by now, there's always going to be MANY, MANY who read these things and conclude "no" and MANY, MANY who read these things and conclude "yes." Such subjectivity cannot be the hope where we place our trust for eternal life.
Go back to 1 John 5:8...the blood is there for an important reason: Real blood was shed; real historical blood that streamed from his body which was noted by historical writers. Objective blood. Yes, we agree, as John says, "We accept man's testimony" (1 John 5:9), but whenever man's testimony focuses on only another mere man, and whenever it winds up trumping God's testimony, what John says is true: "Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar." (1 John 5:10)
We DON'T! And those of us that have taken your so-called "test" did not receive a testimony that the BOM is true or that Smith was a Prophet, rather, the message was the opposite.
I am sorry, I fail to find an actual testimony there to accept or deny.
Did you actually FORGET my post #1204? I posted my testimony there. You replied to it.
Here is the mods reply to my post #1212...did you miss THIS?
But from here on in - all of you - stop "making it personal."
From the Religion Moderator's Profile Page:
Thin skinned RF posters should stick with the “closed” threads. I can and do intercede to keep posters from “making it personal.” There is nothing I can do to prevent a poster from “taking it personal.”
Oh my, I didn’t realize we had a Prophet in our midst whose Revelations could damn the rest of us to hell, just by a burning in the bosom. I think I feel a counter “churning in the colon” revelation coming on that says you are full of it.
DU: I have prayed about the Book of Mormon individually, and the Church individually.
That’s mighty delightsome of you.
DU: I received answers about Both, the answer to the Book of Mormon prayer was a vocal answer from God while I was alone in my room,
And yea, verily, I was also sitting in my throne room, when a disturbing revelation about the Book of Mormon appeared to me as well, as if from a stupifying vapor. And it came to pass that I realized the BOM was all a demented invention of a failed peep stone seer.
DU: I am not going to share the details of what his message was for I hold it sacred and will not cast my pearls before some who will undoubtedly read and respond to this.
And yea, verily it came to pass that I was impugned through devious implication as a swine, however the pearls cast before me turned out to be made of plastic and were quite indigestible (I tried). But I cannot hide the details of the message called ‘the passage of pearls’ revealed to me, because, yea verily, it was as a ‘churning in the colon’, forsooth, yea, oh yeah.
DU: However, I have no doubt that the message was from God.
I myself have many messages from God as I sit in my throne room, because I’m special, more special than anyone else (especially more special than the Gentiles who assail my sanity for no apparent reason). That’s why no one can defeat me in argument, or even at the game of Fish, at which I prosper exceedingly.
DU: The prayer about the Church was answered by a still small voice in my mind that testified to me of it’s truth.
Hey, my inner voice is from a loudspeaker. Right now it is saying “Thank The Lord I’m not hearing delusional voices!”
DU:In addition to these testimonies, I have seen visions,
As do I, visions of grandeur salted with occasional lapses in reality. But at least I try and choke them down with another burrito.
DU: healed the sick, spoken with tongues, prophesied, and had inspiration that can only come from God distill upon my mind.
What happened to walk-on-water, Hie to Kolob, cure AIDs and get a better rate at Geico? You’re slipping DU.
DU:I would that all men would know as I do now the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,
Ummmm, can we get back to you on that one? Take a rain check maybe? I mean, no wonder we’ve had so much trouble winning arguments with you when you are obviously ON A HIGHER PLANE!
DU: and it’s power to bring them the Gospel of Jesus Christ It is this Gospel, not the church that bears it that has power to save, for By the Gospel we increase in Faith, through performing the works that God commands us to we again increase our faith, that our faith in Jesus Christ will be sufficient that he will though his grace absolve us from our sins which he already paid for long ago and thus his atonement will have effect on us and we will be his eternally.
Well, sure, after healing the lame, prophesying, speaking in tongues, talking to God on the hotline and being on an obvious man-God path, why not throw a bone to Jesus.
DU:This is my belief, in God my Lord, my Deliverer, my Savior, my All.
Well, thank you for your humble sermon, your humility is astounding. A real inspiration to Gentiles.
DU:In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
You obviously forgot to say in the name of Joseph Smith as well, cause that’s where this hokum comes from.
DU: Mock me if you must,
Okay, that was easy enough.
DU:but do not mock the things of God lest ye be found as those who mocked Jesus at the last day.
Let’s not confuse who’s being mocked here. You’ve taken on aspects of being a prophet, essentially passed judgment against those who opposed you, and shown you are on a God path. I think you mock yourself quite well.
DU:[Luke 22:63-65
63 ¶ And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him.
64 And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?
65 And many other things blasphemously spake they against him. ]
You aren’t Jesus, DU. Don’t confuse your word with THE WORD.
*****************************
I’ve warned people on Free Republic over and over that the type of bizarre God path hallucinations of Mormons evidenced above are not rare, but rather common, and this is what makes Romney a non-starter. DU has kindly provided evidence of the kinds of self aggrandizing bizarre theology Romney would drag into the White House through appointees who think they are God’s anointed. I want no part of this baloney, even if I’m called a bigot a thousand times over.
It is worth noting that the following actions are present in Satanic cults and false religions and have been for thousands
of years:
Visions
Dreams
Voices
Healing
Tongues
Prophesy
Ceremonies
Writings
None are an exclusive measure of truth - apart from the Bible.
As soon as that is contradicted or denied, the truth claims
of all whirling dervishes and other cultic religions are
proven false.
ampu
No but there is scriptural support for God to leave you in darkness, if you deny the truth of the revelation that He gave to Moses and to the Apostles. You pretend that you don't, but you do. To accept the BOM, you have to deny that the God revealed in the bible is not God, and the God revealed in the NT is not God. You start with that and the train runs off the track.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
All of those things are/have been prevelant through the bible & parts of Christainity for centuries as well. What’s your point? Is Christianity Satanic in your view? The Bible maybe?
You posted: "All of those things are/have been prevelant through the bible & parts of Christainity for centuries as well. What’s your point? Is Christianity Satanic in your view? The Bible maybe?"
Why would you ask the question "Is Christianity Satanic in your view? The Bible maybe?" based on that?
They are not apart from the Bible in our religion. He seemed to be indicating that b/c we believe in those things today, that that might qualify for something Satanic. Clear? Perhaps I gauged him wrong, & if that’s the case, I apologize. But I think I get the jist of what he was saying. I think you do as well.
As soon as that is contradicted or denied. the truth claims of all whirling dervishes and other cultic religions are proven false.
Now, how do you get the question "What’s your point? Is Christianity Satanic in your view? The Bible maybe?" out of his statement?
And you are making implications about my motive. I asked you a simple question.
I already answered your question.
What do you think he was refering to when he stated “the truth claims of all whirling dervishes and other cultic religions are proven false”?
Gotta go, busy schedule.
Joseph Smith never 'tested' the two spirits that visited him; but merely accepted what they told him.
I'll let him speak for himself, but I bet it wasn't "satanic Christianity"!
Are you channeling OMM?
Boo Double Hoo!
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
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