Joseph Smith: Creator of the Fourth Abrahamic Faith; Mormonism

Auhtor's website ^ | September 15, 2007 | G. Richard Jansen

[Utah Girl]

I just wanted to wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving today. :)

[colorcountry]

Thank you, UG and sevenbak,

My prayers are with you too. May we all remember our blessings and thank the One from Whom they all come.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[greyfoxx39]

Thank you UG, and a happy Thanksgiving to all and sundry that take part here. God watch over you, especially if you are traveling.

[Blowtorch]

I just read your post today (Thanksgiving). Thanks for the well written and thought-out response. Having read many translated works, I know that some nuances and meanings are lost, but I was not familiar with the Greek term “metanoia,” which you descibed. It does shed light on the translated word “repentence.” Thanks.

[Blowtorch]

Thanks for the reply. These verses have commonly been cited by those advocating “death-bed” repentence. Two points. 1)We don’t know nor can we judge the man that was promised Paradise. Christ could. Therefore, using these versus to say there is forgiveness without repentence is not conclusive. 2) We must recognize that Paradise and Heaven are not the same. Spirit Paradise or Prison is a place where we await final judgement, per my understanding.

[MHGinTN]

Salvation is the cleansing of your spirit and implanting of God's Life into the human spirit via the Holy Spirit. If you believe, as the Bible teaches in the New Testament, that those 'faithing' in Christ are the Bride of Christ, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Here's something to ponder: if Time is within God's control, when a believer dies there may be no 'flow' of time from the moment of death until seeing the Lord face to face, yet there may be centuries which pass upon the spacetime limited Earth ... Beyond our spacetime may be a realm where time does not 'pass' as we think of it. Scriptures say that it is appointed unto Man once to die, and then the judgment. That is one reason why the claim of proxy baptism for the dead is such an anathema to a truly born again Christian. We may feel assured that those who have the opportunity to have Christ as their Spiritual deliverer in this life and reject Him, for them there is nothing left that can deliver them. For those who have not that chance in this life, well, that is in God's purview, but scripture teaches that those to whom He is offered have only their own chance to accept, and the work cannot be done in any way for them after they die rejecting Him.

[JRochelle]

You too!

I had a great Thanksgiving. Ate too much turkey and pie...

[Colofornian]

Um, verses in both the Bible, and the Book of Mormon were added later, I am sure the verses were matched up on purpose, and it was not done by Nephi, you are the only person I have ever seen to say that. It's not even a teapot sized tempest in your teapot. Sorry you got so worked up about literally nothing.

Are you saying that this "somebody" who "added" verse numbers to Nephi's works was Joseph Smith? (Yes or no will do).

Hey, I can pretty much guarantee you that when God spoke to the Hebrew version of Charleston Heston on the holy mountain, he didn't use King James "thou shalt" language![Me}

Really, so God can speak any language? Oh yeah, he knows everything, and was around at the tower of Babel, might even have been involved, LOL![You}

You miss the point I was making, and it sounds like you purposedly missed the point, tho I could have clarified it better.

I could have just as easily said: Hey, I can pretty much guarantee you that when Jesus appeared to the apostle Paul, he didn't use contemporary Greek!

Now I suppose your comeback to that would still be: Really, so God can speak any language? Oh yeah, he knows everything, and was around at the tower of Babel, might even have been involved, LOL!

The point of speaking a certain dialect is to communicate. No matter how fluent God is in every language, he's not going to speak donkey language to Balaam; He's not going to speak King-James English to Moses; nor is He going to speak contemporary Greek to a would-be apostle who was fluent in Koine Greek.

If we had a New Testament that came written to us by the apostle Paul in contemporary Greek (vs. koine Greek), that would make a lot of folks obviously suspicious. (But not you?)

[DelphiUser]

I was trying to point out that the Bible was not any clearer on some things than the Book of Mormon, and felt that I had been asked for an example:

Please note that it is with reluctance that I give examples for I believe the Book of Mormon, and the Bible both to be the word of God.

I said: For an example of this, exactly how did Judas Die?

You said: Why not READ it??

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Matthew 27:3-10

3. When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders.
4. "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility."
5. So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
6. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money."
7. So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.
8. That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
9. Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel,
10. and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

Acts 1:15-19

15. In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)
16. and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus--
17. he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."
18. (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.
19. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

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There
you have it.

Yes, there you have it, either he hanged himself, or he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out. If this were in the Book of Mormon, you would be touting this as an example of Joseph's perfidy, and proof that it could not be true, but since it is in the Bible, you have no problem with it.

I have no problem with it in the Bible, the important thing is that Judas died, and his apostleship was given to another, by the laying on of hands, by those in authority to do so. That is what matters, not the details of how Judas died.

If you are honest, you will admit that if the Book of Mormon had two such accounts of the death of one man you would be quoting it as evidence that the Book of Mormons was false, thus since you believe the Bible, you are not holding the Book of Mormon to the same standard as the Bible, but to a higher standard.

My point, I trust, is clear to the Lurkers.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: ...Highlighting can add a lot of meaning,...

You Said: You are RIGHT!

If you had just stopped there...

You Said: It DOES point out the heresy MUCH better!

Or create it where there was none.

[Elsie]

This horse ain’t gonna move no more...

BroncoBilly NEEDS you over here...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1930203/posts

[DelphiUser]

You asked: The ACTUAL translation or the JS 'translation'?

I answered: Yes, that one.

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I thought you might try to slither on this one, so here is some good stuff to chew on:

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<Snip> removed a bunch of junk from I believe the Book of the Dead

You seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that Joseph was translating a copy of the Book of the dead.

This is a common misconception held by those who only get their information from anti Mormon web sites, there was most definitely a copy of the book of Breathings included with the Mummies that were purchased, and there are still fragments of that scroll extant, (The actual scroll was on loan to a museum in Chicago when the Chicago fire destroyed them.) however, the book of breathings was not the scroll Joseph translated, the scroll Joseph translated had red writing (the book of the dead, and the Book of Breathings are commonly written in is all black), and the book of Breathings is short. the scroll Joseph translated into the Book of Abraham was long, and was seen by many to been long and have red writing on it.

Book of Abraham papyri (long)

It's simple, Joseph started as a poor farm boy with a limited education in Palmyra New York, yet somehow, he produced the Book of Mormon, founded a religion, produced the Book of Abraham, and the Book of Abraham bears a striking resemblance to portions o the Book of Jasher as recovered from The Dead Sea Scrolls, and you wan to say it was a mistranslation of the Book of the Dead, or Book of Breathings?

Let me see, there are tow theories being promoted here:

1. Joseph was: stupid, a bumpin, Grifter, liar, thief, uneducated plagiarist who married other people's wives, lusted, coveted, started a cult, listened to the Devil, used black magic, deceived millions and is the fastest road to hell and damnation known to man.
2. A prophet of God who did what he was told to by God and was indeed from humble circumstances, but who's works were a testament to his calling.

Let's see, he wrote a book that is now being supported by Archeological evidence in that it is in line with books preserved in the desert.

(Nephi and Alma used in the Dead sea Scrolls, Jasher agreeing with Abraham, the Book of Enoch, agreeing with Joseph's account of God and Jesus being separate persons)

Logic as given to us in occam's razor would tell us that the simplest explanation is the truth:

A rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly. This rule is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known. Also called law of parsimony.

Joseph being a prophet answers all the questions, Joseph being a huckster multiplies entities needlessly, but more importantly, we can just ask God, for he Giveth to all men liberally.

Elsie, I am sorry that you do not believe my religion to be true, but your attacks defy logic, thus I must conclude that you are motivated by emotion, and not logic.

Go ahead, attack my logical conclusion...

[DelphiUser]

You said: Are you saying that this "somebody" who "added" verse numbers to Nephi's works was Joseph Smith? (Yes or no will do).

No, I believe it was the printer who added verse numbers...
Her is some Reference material for you) You said: You miss the point I was making, and it sounds like you purposedly missed the point, tho I could have clarified it better.

I seldom "Miss the point on purpose" unless it is for comic relief.. What you said was downright funny.

You said: Now I suppose your comeback to that would still be:...

MOSES Moses supposes His toes are roses, But Moses supposes Erroneously; For nobody's toeses Are posies of roses, As Moses supposes His toeses to be

Humor, it's good for you.

You said: The point of speaking a certain dialect is to communicate.

Agreed! You said: No matter how fluent God is in every language, he's not going to speak donkey language to Balaam;

Why not?

You said: He's not going to speak King-James English to Moses;

Of course not for Moses would not be able to understand him with out God's help.

You said: nor is He going to speak contemporary Greek to a would-be apostle who was fluent in Koine Greek.

Yes, but Joseph who was the person being talked to was fluent in Elizabethan English, and communication would be very effective that way. If your Goal is to communicate, you speak the language people are comfortable with. Mormon missionaries learn to speak the language of the people they are called to serve, It's logical that God would speak to whomever eh is trying to communicate with in the language they are most comfortable hearing his words in, in this case, Elizabethan English. It would make no sense for God to Communicate with Joseph in say Swahili.

If we had a New Testament that came written to us by the apostle Paul in contemporary Greek (vs. koine Greek), that would make a lot of folks obviously suspicious. (But not you?)

LOL! The Book of Mormon was not in "Elizabethan English", the translation was!

Somebody really has his facts twisted) if the Book of Mormon was in Elizabethan English, it would not have needed a translator!!!

If that was your point all along (that the Book of Mormon was written in Elizabethan English on the Gold plates) than I need not add humor, and yes, I misunderstood you.

[bpjam]

So, in summary, Mitt Romney could cure cancer, pay off the Federal Debt himself and locate a sextape between Hillary Clinton and Donna Shalala and you still would rather have anybody else.

By the way, the guy who advocated reincarnation? St Thomas of Aquinas.

I’m still not supporting Romney but I just don’t have the rabid hate thing about him and I don’t know that I will be able to fully appreciate it.

[sinatorhellary]

"...of a truth i am not [tearing down the Bible]..."

"It is impossible to agree completely with the Bible, for there are places where the Bible contradicts itself."

Words have meanings. It doesn't take a scholar to see what you are doing.

"...exactly how did Judas die?"

Since I believe all of Scripture to be true, from what we can read in the Gospels, Judas "hanged himself" (Matt 27:5) and "he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out." (Acts 1:18)

The believer accepts both as true. I can "suppose" a realistic scenario in which one hangs oneself and after some decomposition the body falls to the ground and bursts open. I am not saying that's what happened - just that it is a plausible scenario that fits the description.

The skeptic says that since the two accounts of Judas' death mention different details, there is an obvious contradiction.

You need to look up the definition of contradiction. Differing details do not a contradiction make. If one said he hanged himself and another said he didn't hang himself, that would be a contradiction.

You can find similar differences in many of the gospel accounts of the life of Jesus. Experts on multiple witness testimony tell us that if the stories are exactly in synch, that is evidence of collusion - getting the stories straight before giving testimony. When the accounts have different details that compliment each other, that is evidence of factual multiple witness accounts.

I guess you just have to ask yourself whether you believe the Bible or not. If you don't then you should probably refrain from claiming it is scripture.

[Colofornian]

So, in summary, Mitt Romney could cure cancer, pay off the Federal Debt himself and locate a sextape between Hillary Clinton and Donna Shalala and you still would rather have anybody else.

OK, since your "Dr. Romney" is not exactly a trillionaire times who knows what, let's just settle on your third scenario & say such a "revelation" comes out pre-Dem convention. As a result, let's say Mr. Obama is the D nominee.

Did you see the recent article in Slate mag, "Mitt the Mormon -- Why Romney needs to talk about his faith?" You can go here for an excerpt & thread on it: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1930710/posts

On that thread, I pointed out the following:

Slate excerpt: Until 1978, the so-called Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was an officially racist organization. Mitt Romney was an adult in 1978. We need to know how he justified this to himself, and we need to hear his self-criticism, if he should chance to have one.

Then I said: Anybody really think the MSM won't ask this question repeatedly in '08? Imagine this: MR wins the R nomination. BObama bounces past the D leader due to some future or past scandal. Do FREEPERS really think this matter wouldn't be a HUGE issue in '08 if this was the match-up???

I would think that you would be a person who is appropriately sensitized to race issues due to the inhuman historical treatment of the race that Jesus Christ was born into. So, I would like to hear your own opinion on a potential Obama vs. Romney match-up in light of LDS history--and in light of LDS Book of Mormon scriptures where skin color was (& "is" if we're talking about the Book of Mormon) regarded as a "curse."

[DelphiUser]

Words have meanings. It doesn't take a scholar to see what you are doing.

Good, because I am not writing these defenses of my religion and person for Scholars, but for the common man who may read this thread.

Since I believe all of Scripture to be true, from what we can read in the Gospels, Judas "hanged himself" (Matt 27:5) and "he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out." (Acts 1:18)

The believer accepts both as true. I can "suppose" a realistic scenario in which one hangs oneself and after some decomposition the body falls to the ground and bursts open. I am not saying that's what happened - just that it is a plausible scenario that fits the description.

I agree with you that it's plausible, but my point was that such a passage in the Book of Mormon would be a cause for much fun making in those such as yourself who are inclined to find "plausible" explanations for the Bible, but fault with the Book of Mormon. That's all I'm Sayin' (and I think that is plain from my words.

The skeptic says that since the two accounts of Judas' death mention different details, there is an obvious contradiction.

I had actually come to a conclusion, similar to yours...

You need to look up the definition of contradiction. Differing details do not a contradiction make. If one said he hanged himself and another said he didn't hang himself, that would be a contradiction.

contradiction
Something that is logically incongruous, counts. Dying by hanging, or going and buying a field, and falling down in it, and dying are logically incongruent, thus we must assume some details to make them fit. I am exact in my usage here, thank you.

You can find similar differences in many of the gospel accounts of the life of Jesus. Experts on multiple witness testimony tell us that if the stories are exactly in synch, that is evidence of collusion - getting the stories straight before giving testimony. When the accounts have different details that compliment each other, that is evidence of factual multiple witness accounts.

Thank you, i have said this myself, about the Book of Mormon and the witnesses of it.

I guess you just have to ask yourself whether you believe the Bible or not. If you don't then you should probably refrain from claiming it is scripture.

I do, (believe the Bible) I am using this as an example of why some of the attacks on the Book of Mormon are disingenuous when similar problems exist in the Bible which the attackers say they believe in. I just want them to be intellectually honest.

Thank you for a well thought out and fair assessment of my words, it's not all that common here.

[Elsie]

Go ahead, attack my logical conclusion...

If you HAD one, I might, but, as it is, you merely used my post as a launching point for more LDS drivel.

JS did NOT 'translate' ANYTHING to come up with the BoA!

[Elsie]

I can "suppose" a realistic scenario in which one hangs oneself and after some decomposition the body falls to the ground and bursts open. I am not saying that's what happened - just that it is a plausible scenario that fits the description.

And, if one checks Roman practices of the time, NO one took down bodies.

They DID do EXACTLY as you have written.

[Elsie]

 

I agree with you that it's plausible, but my point was that such a passage in the Book of Mormon would be a cause for much fun making in those such as yourself who are inclined to find "plausible" explanations for the Bible, but fault with the Book of Mormon.

 

Surely NOT!!!

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In my BoM 1981 edition, on the page with the introduction (4th sheet from front) has these lines...

 

"The record is now published in many languages as a new and additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come unto him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved.

 

Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: "I told the brethern that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."

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NOT with the BoM!!