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Posted on 11/13/2007 5:34:21 PM PST by Semper
One of the most dangerous political considerations today is that of abortion; it is a most divisive subject. Many in this arena are motivated by religious beliefs. Just in case anyone has forgotten, we are not a theocracy – our founding fathers wanted religion left to the churches and the government left to the most qualified.
Those who fanatically oppose the medical procedure of abortion refer to themselves as “pro-life”, implying that those who do not agree with them do not value life as much as they do (a most arrogant state of mind) .
To believe so strongly in your understanding of life that you assume the right to take away the freedom of a woman to determine what will define her life is dangerous. You certainly have the right to try to influence that woman to do what you think is best, but it is her right and responsibility to make the final decision.
One of the things that hurts the anti abortion movement is the terms which are coined. A fetus is not a baby (just as a child is not an adult and an adult is not a senior citizen). Human life goes through stages of development. And, until someone is born into this human environment, until they breathe on their own, until they feed on their own, until they exist outside of a woman’s womb, they are not anyone’s responsibility other than the woman who sustains them.
That is unless you want to overrule the intention of our founders and apply your religious understanding of how life should be interpreted and take away the freedom for which countless “already born” have died.
Do you presume to insist that human activity (birth, growth, deterioration, death) is more powerful than God’s creation - which is described as spiritual? Can the human decisions to kill a living person (as in war) or to abort a POTENTIAL, undeveloped person actually overrule God’s creations?
I believe that there is nothing humans can do to overturn God’s laws and his infinite creation of good. What is required is for us to FREELY choose to live in accordance with HIS plan. And politically, we need to support those who realistically have a chance to foster that outcome.
FREEDOM
A person is an individual expression of God; an individual expression of Life. I believe that expression is not dependent upon any human condition or process. God is spiritual and therefore persons are spiritual. God is eternal, without beginning or ending and therefore persons are that also.
This human condition is temporary. It is limited and imperfect and therefore not a valid representation of God's spiritual creation. I believe that to equate human activities and conditions to God's creation is a mistake.
and Why would it not be justified for a family to euthanize a severly mentally and physically disabled child who is completely dependent on them for all her needs?
I think it would be important to know how much the child was suffering. I have a hard time understanding why someone should be kept suffering if there appears to be no end in sight - especially since I do not believe that life ends when we leave this earth.
I know. It’s antagonistic nonsense that is far and apart from what I’m used to seeing in the Religion forum.
So, in fact, contrary to your earlier attempts to obfuscate the personhood of children in the womb, you now admit you support the murder of children at any age.
One purpose is to plant a seed of reason to overcome the distinct possibility that a fanatical obsession with abortion will be counter productive and make a "president hillary" more likely.
No, that is not a valid understanding of my position.
How has this promoter of euthanasia survived for a whole decade on FR?
How could I misunderstand? You've made it clear that you think it's fine to off sick or disabled children, and perfectly healthy ones if they haven't yet passed through the birth canal.
Ah. Those who uphold the self-evident founding principle of America, that our rights to life and liberty come from He Who created us are now "fanatics."
There's a party in this country that believes what you believe, and its nominee will most likely be Hillary Clinton.
You have shown yourself to be exactly in step with her, and with the Democrat platform, not the Reagan pro-life Republican platform, which recognizes the personhood of the unborn child, and the protection of all innocents under the Constitution's clear provisions for the same.
To be more clear:
Your views are also perfectly aligned with those of a certain party that ran Germany in the 1930’s and 40’s...right up until those who valued innocent human life, and honored the God who gives life, put an end to their atrocities.
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:::How would you feel if your pregnancy was forced upon you against your will (by rape)?:::
The rape is wrong. Does that make the baby wrong? Do we label every child of rape non- or un-human and kill them? What other condition might put that label on a human being? Do we start with Down’s Syndrome? How about MS? How about those with dark skin? Or blue eyes? Or red hair? Or of an ethnic persuasion? Nobody will mind if we gas a few Jews or gypsies, right?
Once the state has taken upon itself the ability to sanction killings of any humans, then no humans are safe because there is always a reason that can be found, to do so.
:::God is spiritual and therefore persons are spiritual. God is eternal, without beginning or ending and therefore persons are that also.:::
This is not a Christian belief. Where, if I may ask, are you coming from?
‘”God is eternal, without beginning or ending and therefore persons are that also”.
This is New Age thinking.
God is eternal. He created us and brings us into being. What must be created is not eternal. If we live as we should, we can SHARE eternity with Him after we are taken up in death—a death that is designed to take place at a time that He alone ordains.
“One purpose is to plant a seed of reason”.....
I have to break it to you. First of all, your position is not one of “reason”. Secondly, the seed apparently didn’t come to anything, as the responses on this thread should be clearly apparent to you.
“fanatical obsession with abortion”. No, all of us who are pro-life have a conviction of truth about who we are as a person, and who we are as a nation.
If we get a “president hillary”, we will have to shore things up and take it on, which is an American ideal. We’ll have to deal with what we have done if she becomes president, and maybe that may be a winnowing fan for us to see how important it is to get things right.
What we may not be able to survive is becoming a nihilistic and utilitarian society, which is what your position happens to be.
“One purpose is to plant a seed”...
That’s one purpose—what are the other ones?
I agree with you on this, but am in complete disageement with your position on abortion, specially in your position that birth is the only viable bright line.
Your position allows for killing those who would be capable of living outside of their mother's wombs if they were delievered instead of being aborted.
I grieve that your heart is so hardened. I am at a loss at how to explain the implications behind your beliefs. So I will argue and debate no more. I will however, pray for you. Especially to the Patroness of the Preborn, Our Lady.
I pray that Christ the Good Shepherd who gathers the children into His loving arms may move your heart to mercy, your mind to Truth, your soul to grace and your will to His will, amen.
Great answer. Now Semper has to explain why the magic still takes place when delivery occurs by c-section.
“Since we are created by a spiritual Source, in His image, we are also essentially spiritual and not ultimately subject to human, material conditions”.
Now we are into theology.
Man is not “essentially spiritual”. Man is a creature of dual natures, oneness in being. We are body and soul and have been promised that we will claim our body in a new and glorious form when we are received into heaven.
To redeem us, Christ assumed human form and became one of us. He made himself subject to human “conditions and material”. He became man for us, and as a man, assumed our transgressions and redeemed them by offering His human Body on the Cross.
The Incarnation, Christ Jesus, means something. It is the validation of our humanity and the very purpose of our Redemption—to pay the ransom for our sins by the offering of His human “material”—His Body—on the Cross.
You have a grave misunderstanding of the human condition.
Man has the POTENTIAL to be eternal. But we are not:
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life
Because of sin, man's existence is temporary. We die, we really die, when we die. We are NOT eternal, we are dust.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It is a lie that man already has eternal life. It's an old lie:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
The reason for this is simple. God cannot allow sinful, flawed humans to have eternal life. To spend eternity as a flawed sinful person would be torture.
To the specific issue of abortion. Biblically, a person is a person from womb to death. For example:
Jdg 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.
From the womb to death.
Gal 1:15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
God sets people apart for his holy purposes from the womb. Not from birth. People are conceived for specific, Godly reasons. The ultimate reason is to become eternal. A child of God, to become part of the family of God.
Abortion is wrong not because it prevents God's plan. God's plan will continue. It must, he's perfect and he designed it. We can't thwart his plans for the salvation of one of his children.
Abortion is wrong because they who support it and take part in it are affecting their own salvation. Their own development. They are violating a commandment of God (probably several) by killing an innocent life. They are sinning. They are making a choice to violate God's laws. That is sin:
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Now here's the good news. Every person, aborted or otherwise, will have a chance to have salvation, to become eternal. Thats what the resurrection is about. God is fair and just and everyone will have a chance at salvation.
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