Posted on 11/09/2007 1:55:47 PM PST by NYer
and Alex Murphy also if he wishes to participate. Since DouglasKC is a Sabbatarian and our topic is authority of the church, my question is this: Who changed the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first and by what authority? Obviously Jesus was a Sabbatarian because He stood up and read scriptures on the Sabbath. Quote scriptures that directly explain this abrupt departure from a millennia old Law that was wrote by the Hand of God on stone tablets.
Somehow I don’t think that Jesus would consider His mother, who he revered above all women, or John, the youngest of his disciples, who he loved like a brother, and in whose care He left His mother when He died on the Cross, anything like what your selected bit of Old Testament scripture described.
Synonyms: revere, worship, venerate, adore, idolize
So, do you worship, venerate, adore, idolize Mary?
The Scripture actually says, Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Mary is still among women, she was not and is not divine. She didn't die for your sins to be intecessor to God. Jesus did.
anything like what your selected bit of Old Testament scripture described.
Is this "selected bit" part of the Bible that you don't believe?
Somehow I don’t think that Jesus would consider His mother, who he revered above all women, or John, the youngest of his disciples, who he loved like a brother, and in whose care He left His mother when He died on the Cross, anything like what your selected bit of Old Testament scripture described.
You're right...while they were alive,
BUT NOW THEY ARE DEAD!!!
I've asked the others, now I'll ask you...
I don't wish to continue dialog regarding this or any other false doctine. I do not wish to engage in this heresy any further. I will however respond to your err in Scripture.
In Christ...ALONE!
From the scriptures, it appears that the practice was established at the beginning of the church age. It's when they took communion and listened to the sermon:
Act 20:7 And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow. And he continued his speech until midnight.
And when they took up the collection:
1Co 16:1 - 2 Now concerning the collections that are made for the saints: as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, so do ye also. On the first day of the week, let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him: that when I come, the collections be not then to be made.
I agree they met. I agree they took up collections. But show me something which invalidates the ten commandments declaration to keep the Sabbath day holy. The Sabbath was to do what? Commemorate creation? And keep mankind recognizant of the obligation that man owed his Creator? Can we change it again to Monday? Why or why not?
Calvin actually suggested Tuesday at one point, to emphasize that all days belong to the Lord, not just one day a week.
But the shift to Sunday was because that was the day of Resurrection and the fulfillment of the law.
Sunday was the first day of the week according to the Jewish method of reckoning, but for Christians it began to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath in Apostolic times as the day set apart for the public and solemn worship of God. The practice of meeting together on the first day of the week for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is indicated in Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10, it is called the Lord's day. In the Didache (xiv) the injunction is given: "On the Lord's Day come together and break bread. And give thanks (offer the Eucharist), after confessing your sins that your sacrifice may be pure". St. Ignatius (Ep. ad Magnes. ix) speaks of Christians as "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also Our Life rose again". In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i.e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead".
St. Justin is the first Christian writer to call the day Sunday (I Apol., lxvii) in the celebrated passage in which he describes the worship offered by the early Christians on that day to God. The fact that they ment together and offered public worship on Sunday necessitated a certain rest from work on that day. However, Tertullian (202) is the first writer who expressly mentions the Sunday rest: "We, however (just as tradition has taught us), on the day of the Lord's Resurrection ought to guard not only against kneeling, but every posture and office of solicitude, deferring even our businesses lest we give any place to the devil" ("De orat.", xxiii; cf. "Ad nation.", I, xiii; "Apolog.", xvi).
These and similar indications show that during the first three centuries practice and tradition had consecrated the Sunday to the public worship of God by the hearing of the Mass and the resting from work. With the opening of the fourth century positive legislation, both ecclesiastical.
by what authority?
By Christ (Matt. 16:19)
See #10 & #14.
The attempt at humor in #2 and #8 is of the good natured kind, however, there is a clear agenda revealed.
The books of Didache,Ignatius,Barnabas,Justin and Tertullian are not in my Bible. Therefore they do not count as the Word of God. As far as Revelation 1:10 referring to The Lords Day, scripturally you are on sinking soil again because Mark 2:28 has Christ declaring the Sabbath as His day. I am looking for verses that emphatically declare that God is declaring the Sabbath is done and over with and let’s go with Sunday from now on with the same unmistakable clarity that the Sabbath observance was declared. And it would have helped if Christ, while He was here on earth, put this “new law” into practice since He is our example. Pretty careless of Him, don’t you think?
The book of Calvin is not in my Bible therefore it does not qualify as The Word of God. I feel Calvin would agree this too was predestined.
Bob. Is the Bible the sole "teaching from God?" No. The Bible Itself states that there are "oral" teachings and traditions that are to be carried on to the present-day (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 1 Corinthians 11:2; 2 Timothy 2:2; Romans 10:17; 1 Peter 1:24-25). These teachings are what the Catholic Church considers "Sacred Apostolic Tradition." This type of "Tradition" never changes because it was passed down by the Apostles themselves.
And it would have helped if Christ, while He was here on earth, put this “new law” into practice since He is our example. Pretty careless of Him, don’t you think?
The Bible is not to be taken literally - "word for word". The Bible doesn't state anywhere that It should be taken literally. The Bible was written by different authors with different literary styles at different times in history and in different languages. Therefore, the writings should be interpreted with these circumstances in mind. The Bible is a religious book, not a scientific or a history "textbook." Jesus Christ did not write down any part of the New Testament with His own hand. As you just noted, if the Bible was to be the sole authority of the Church, shouldn't Jesus have written down His Own teachings? Shouldn't He have at least stated something similar to the following: "the written works of My disciples will be the authority upon which My Church is based?" Did Jesus Christ with His own mouth instruct His disciples to "write down" His teachings? No - with the possible exception of the Book of Revelations. Does the Bible state It is the sole or final authority of Christianity? No. Neither this statement nor anything even close to it appears anywhere in the New Testament. In fact, Christ said that the Church is to resolve disputes among Christians, not Scripture (Matthew 18:17).
This is the problem with Sola Scriptura. To have the Bible as the only and sole authority of Christianity is to invite chaos into His Church. There are at least 5 Protestant denominations created every year based on a different interpretation of the Bible. Theoretically, anyone who owns a Bible can create their own denomination based on their own interpretation of Scripture. Taken to its logical conclusion, chaos is what happens when the doctrine of "Sola Scriptura" is applied. And Christ stated "A tree is recognized by its fruit" (Matthew 12:33) and the doctrine of Sola Scriptura produces "bad fruit" (disunity, confusion and separation).
The Bible Itself never states that It is the sole and only authority of Christianity. The word "Bible" is not even mentioned in Scripture. However, I totally agree that It is one of the authorities in Christianity, but where does It state that It alone is the only authority?
Fine let's go to your quote of Mathew 16:19. This vague text could easily be symbolic instead of literal but it is one your church uses to claim validity. Christ was contrasting Peter (Cephas the stone) with Himself the cornerStone of the church. Christ is the Foundation of the church not Peter. Peter denied his Lord three times but Christ stood the test and fulfilled His promise of redemption.
His Open Arms Welcomed Me [ Paul Thigpen}
Why I'm Catholic (Sola Scriptura leads atheist to Catholic Church)
From Calvinist to Catholic (another powerful conversion story) Rodney Beason
Good-bye To All That (Another Episcopalian gets ready to swim the Tiber)
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church
Bishop Steenson’s Statement to the House [of Bishops: Episcopal (TEC) to Catholic]
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church
Bishop Steenson Will Become a Roman Catholic
Married man considers turn as Catholic priest
Pavarotti returns to the Catholic faith before dying
Searching For Authority (A Methodist minister finds himself surprised by Truth!)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part V: The Catholics and the Pope(Al Kresta)
The Hail Mary of a Protestant (A true story)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part IV: Crucifix and Altar(Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts (Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Rusty Tisdale (former Pentecostal)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness(Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Matt Enloe (former Baptist) [prepare to be amazed!]
THE ORTHODOX REVIVAL IN RUSSIA
Conversion Story - David Finkelstein (former Jew)
Conversion Story - John Weidner (former Evangelical)
12 Reasons I Joined the Catholic Church
Conversion Story - Tom Hunt
The Tide Is Turning Toward Catholicism: The Converts
John Calvin Made Me Catholic
Journey Home - May 21 - Neil Babcox (former Presbyterian) - A minister encounters Mary
Going Catholic - Six journeys to Rome
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]
From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
Why Converts Choose Catholicism
From Calvinist to Catholic
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
Interview with Roy Schoeman - A Jewish Convert
Let us call an end to this, shall we? I have lobbed you a softball - The change from Saturday to Sunday. It should have been easy one for an experienced person as yourself. I could have just as easily went a different route such as different popes positions on Galileo, torture, slavery, the inquisition and other such unpleasantries. I did not because I like you. I know you are sincere person. In return you did not call upon your ping list to flay me. We are even, are we not? Let us return to our corners and praise God because He is worthy of praise and worship. Amen.
From the grammatical point of view, the phrase "this rock" must relate back to the closest noun. Peter’s profession of faith ("You are the Christ, the Son of the living God") is two verses earlier, while his name, a proper noun, is in the immediately preceding clause.
As you can see, Bob, this also settles the question of whether the word refers to Christ himself, since he is mentioned within the profession of faith. The fact that he is mentioned elsewhere, by a different metaphor, called the cornerstone (Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:4-8) does not disprove that here Peter is the foundation. Christ is naturally the principal and, since he will be returning to heaven, the invisible foundation of the Church that he will establish; but Peter is named by him as the secondary and, because he and his successors will remain on earth, the visible foundation. Peter can be a foundation only because Christ is the cornerstone.
Peter denied his Lord three times but Christ stood the test and fulfilled His promise of redemption.
Still reflecting on Matthew 16:19, Peter alone was promised something else: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven". You are correct in recognizing the important symbolism of these words. In ancient times, keys were the hallmark of authority. A walled city might have one great gate; and that gate had one great lock, worked by one great key. To be given the key to the city—an honor that exists even today, though its import is lost—meant to be given free access to and authority over the city. The city to which Peter was given the keys was the heavenly city itself. This symbolism for authority is used elsewhere in the Bible (Is. 22:22, Rev. 1:18).
Now, immediately before his denials were predicted, Peter was told, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again [after the denials], strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32). It was Peter who Christ prayed would have faith that would not fail and that would be a guide for the others; and his prayer, being perfectly efficacious, was sure to be fulfilled.
Finally, after the resurrection, Jesus appeared to his disciples and asked Peter three times, "Do you love me?" (John 21:15-17). In repentance for his threefold denial, Peter gave a threefold affirmation of love. Then Christ, the Good Shepherd (John 10:11, 14), gave Peter the authority he earlier had promised: "Feed my sheep" (John 21:17). This specifically included the other apostles, since Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love me more than these?" (John 21:15), the word "these" referring to the other apostles who were present (John 21:2). Thus was completed the prediction made just before Jesus and his followers went for the last time to the Mount of Olives.
More fancy footwork with words to explain and clarify away what should be abundantly clear. Christ alone is The Foundation and nothing can change that. Galatians 2:11-14 shows that Peter is still the fallible person that we all are. You can dress him up in a fancy pointy chefs hat and give him a decoder ring and he still will be a fallible sinner such as you and me. Christ alone is perfect and He alone is fit to be the Head of the church. The Gospel is simple - submission to God and repentance for our sins through the Blood of Jesus Christ. But your church has made it all complicated with rites, ceremonies ,rules and hierarchies. I do not feel the Carpenter of Nazareth would feel at home in a statuary filled cathedral.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honorable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
This refers to the Bereans who used the Old Testament to confirm the oral teachings about the Messiah. The verses do not say the Bereans searched the Scriptures alone. Moreover, the Bereans accepted the oral teaching from Paul as God's word before searching the Scriptures, which disproves the Berean's use of sola Scriptura.
Here's another gem found in Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Bob, this is the same as Matt. 15:3. There is a distinction between human tradition (that we should reject) and apostolic tradition (that we must accept).
I do not know how else to say it but that the Bible has to be the standard, and not any church made up of people who are by our very nature sinful.
Bob, look at Mark 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature. But Jesus did not want this preaching to stop after the apostles died, and yet the Bible was not compiled until four centuries later. The word of God was transferred orally. There were no printed Bibles in the first centuries. Please bear with me on the following description of life in the early Church.
Consider that in 50AD, Imperial Rome was at the peak of its political, economic and military might - a "superpower". Romans of the 1st century were surprisingly modern - they had running water and flushing toilets in their homes. They also had social ills - crime, unemployment, slums, high taxes, political corruption, class and race divisions, pornography and prostitution. Religion for the Romans was predominantly pagan. Cults began to emerge. The old-fashioned harvest gods once worshipped with sheaves of wheat and jugs of wine degenerated steadily into fashionable sex gods to be worshipped with acts of perversion and infant sacrifice.
Between 50 and 60AD, the Apostles came. Word spread that there had arisen in distant Judea a group of Jewish wise men preaching in the name of a mysterious new deity called Christus. They were the very first "Christians" in Rome, Jewish expatriates returning to their adopted city after being converted by Peter's Spirit filled preaching at Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. The Bible explicity mentions that present in the crowd that day were "visitors from Rome" (Acts 2:10). But these early Roman converts would truly have been sheep without a shepherd, returning to face the prospect of life as the only believers in a pagan metropolis of half a million souls. They probably met together in their homes for prayer - two or three gathered in Christ's name - but entirely without leadership. Several years later, however, when Paul addressed his most profound epistle to "all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints", we find a much different situation.
Written about 57AD, the Epistle to the Romans speaks to a church large and well organized, consisting of several house congregations knit together in complete unity under the oversight of seasoned elders (presbyters). Who accomplished this work? It was Peter who preached orally.
Elsewhere in Rome, another person had also been working tirelessly among God's lost sheep. Like Peter, his given name was Simon. To most Roman minds, he was much like Peter. Both men refered to themselves as "apostles". Both had been associated with miracles. Both had come to Rome preaching in the name of Jesus the Nazarene. Though Simon of Gitto is technically a Samaritan rather than a Jew, the majority of the pagans regard him as simply another Semitic prophet from the same part of the world. Simon of Gitto was Simon Magus, founder of the ancient heresy called Gnosticism. Former disciple of Philip the evangelist, Simon apostatized to become the first person in recorded history to teach falsehood in the holy name of Jesus. He was the original fulfillment of Matthew 7:15.
The Gnostics passed themselves off as Christians and the average Roman could not tell the difference. Right from the start of Christianity, Satan was already muddying the waters. If the shepherds look like angels, how were the sheep to choose between them? How on earth could the common Roman in 50AD - only just hearing of Jesus for the first time - suppose to know which are His true disciples and which the false?
From our position in time, we might casually imagine that these early believers had only to pull out their pocket New Testaments. In reality, this was completely impossible because the New Testament did not yet exist. It is a neglected fact and often forgotten that the Church had been preaching the gospel, saving souls and founding congregations all over the Near East for at least 10 years before a single line of the NT was written. Back then, a new believer might possibly have been introduced to Matthew's Gospel and perhaps one or two letters from Paul - but even these would have been circulating loose as individual works. Over 300 years would have to pass before they ever came to be bound together in one authoritative canon.
The Holy Spirit was present in the early Church to guide genuine believers into all truth. Yet no Orthodox Christian today believes that the Spirit does this guiding independently of the Bible. We rightly insist that individuals must test their private spiritual insights against the written Word of God. Who or what filled this crucial role in the first century Church, where the Word of God for Christians would not be fully known for literally centuries? What kept the Body of Christ from collapsing into doctrinal chaos in a world where most believers lived their entire lives without even knowing what the New Testament was?
The answer is deceptively simple but for those in the first century, it would have been the plainest fact about the matter:
"This man was with Jesus of Nazareth." (Matthew 26:71)
In short, Jesus' public ministry had been just that - public. And though He was much more than a mere rabbi, the "Rabbi" Jesus did follow the established rabbinical practice of the day by publicly committing His teaching to disciples. Just as Paul of Tarsus had been personally discipled by the great Pharisee Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), so Peter of Galilee, along with the rest of the 12 had been personally discipled by Christ.
Back in the 1st century, the first question the public asked about any workman - butcher, baker or Hebrew theologian - was the same: Who had been his master? If the founder had gone on, people wanted to know which men were carrying on his traditions. A pagan Roman had simply to pose the traditional question: Which men had been with Jesus? That fact alone, once established, banished all doubts. Summarizing this understanding in the early Church, Tertullian wrote the following simple but penetrating words:
"If the Lord Jesus Christ sent the Apstles to preach, no others ought to be received except those appointed by Christ: For no one knows the Father except the Son, and him to whom the Son gives a revelation (Mt 11:27). Nor does it seem that the Son has given revelation to any others than the Apostles, whom He sent forth to preach what He had revealed to them"
This claim could not be made by Simon and his Gnostics. To counterract this fact, we know from Irenaeus that Simon and his followers referred to represent themselves as "improvers of the apostles". After all, were these simple fishermen not plain, unlettered peasants? Would it be so surprising if such men had been unable to grasp fully the subtleties of their Teacher's message? Accordingly, the Gnostics maintained that the Galileans had "preached before they possessed perfect knowledge" and "intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Savior". They themselves, on the other had, were "purer and more intelligent" and had "discovered more than the apostles", rescuing "the unadulterated truth" that had eluded these ignorant and carnal Jews.
Bob, this posting has run longer than I would have preferred but I hope it helps you to envision what life was like during the early years of the Church. You commented:
When we eliminate the scriptures as our litmus test we have given the devil an opportunity to entice us to partake of the forbidden fruit.
How does that apply to these first century christians who, according to Mark 3:14; 16:15, following the command of our Lord to preach the Gospel. Jesus gave no commandment to the apostles to write, and gave them no indication that the oral apostolic word he commanded them to communicate would later die in the fourth century. If Jesus wanted Christianity to be limited to a book (which would be finalized four centuries later), wouldn't He have said a word about it?
Thank you for taking the time and patience to read through this very abbreviated account of the early Church. The first converts were brutally persecuted for their faith - a faith orally communicated - by being covered with tar and turned into human torches to light the Coliseum. They went to their deaths chanting hymns - all based on oral Tradition.
This wasn't communion. "Breaking bread" was and is a common term in King James time for eating a meal together.
In addition, this occurred on a Saturday night, not a Sunday. The phrase translated "first day of the week" is literally the "first of the sabbaths" or perhaps the "first sabbath". It could indicate the first of the sabbaths counted toward Pentecost between the days of unleavened bread or simply denote that they met on the sabbath. At any rate, when the sun went down on Saturday, a new "day" began. This was a meal, a potluck if you will, that they were eating together.
1Co 16:1 - 2 Now concerning the collections that are made for the saints: as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, so do ye also. On the first day of the week, let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him: that when I come, the collections be not then to be made.
This is a one time occurrence. A special collection take up probably for the saints in Jerusalem as referenced here:
Rom 15:26 For Macedonia and Achaia thought it good to make certain gifts to the poor of the saints in Jerusalem.
It doesn't say that they gathered together, only that they individually were supposed to gather together foodstuffs, supplies and whatnot so it would be ready when Paul arrived.
If you want to use scripture as an example of believers gathering together, then the overwhelming NT evidence is that they gathered on the sabbath day:
(Act 13:14) But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
(Act 13:27) For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
(Act 13:42) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
(Act 13:44) And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
(Act 15:21) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(Act 16:13) And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
(Act 17:2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures,
(Act 18:4) And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Not to mention the example set by our Lord himself. "Christians" are those who follow Christ, imitate him. Paul said:
1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.(NASB)
Paul kept the sabbath, Christ kept the sabbath. It's a commandment of the Lord, one of the ten commandments.
The Bereans listened with open minds to Paul. The Bereans then used scripture to check to see if the teachings they heard matched up with scripture. If it did THEN they believed. They confirmed the teachings of Paul using scripture. That's honorable and correct.
I know somebody else mentioned it, but Christ was wrathful against the Jews of his day because they instituted non scriptural ORAL traditions and elevated them to the place of scripture:
Mar 7:7 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
Mar 7:8 "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
Mar 7:9 He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
This applied perfectly to Christ's situation then and can be equally applied today, especially to the sabbath commandment.
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