[DelphiUser]

Greyfox 39, I am flattered that you would remember my post, and that you would quote it. I also want to thank you for pinging me when you talk about me, I really do appreciate it.

So, off to your post.

So they can do it to others and their family has no say in the matter? That takes..... well... guts, shall we say?

Mormon Doctrine specifically states that the dead choose whether or not to accept, so if we are wrong and have no authority, who cares what we do? If we are right, the dead who did not have the opportunity to receive the saving ordinances in this life now have the choice, besides if we are right, it's a commandment from God.

Oh, but the DEAD can either accept or reject the rites. That is the rationalization. Some folks, however, see this as complete disrespect of the dead AND the living.

I find the attacks on my church offensive, do you guys plan to stop attacking us? (ROTFLLOL)

Read this post #656 on how the proxy work affected this poster, and ask if he was thinking of the dead he was representing, or of himself and how the experience affected him. This work is a major "calling" for Mormons, works that they believe will lead to their own "exaltation".

Thanks for asking, often we are told what we are thinking, it's nice to have someone actually ask.

Lets start with the works thing.

Mormons believe that a) We are saved by Grace, and b) we have been commanded to do all that we can do.

Often this the Book of Mormon is quoted: 2 Ne. 25: 23

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

This is said to be a departure from the Bible, even though the footnotes (footnote C) goes directly to James 2:14-26

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

It would be accurate to say that we interpret James 2 differently than "Grace only" churches, but to state that we believe in "Works only" is a gross misrepresentation. This "works only" argument is either from ignorance, or a willingness to misstate our position. We believe that true belief will be followed by actions, actions will increase faith which will be followed by more actions...

As for my intent in going on a temple date with my wife, I go on many dates with my wife. We have a sushi place in Provo that we really like called Asuka, best sushi in town and they have an "all you can eat" is roughly equal to three rolls of sushi. The choice (something Mormons are very big on) to go to the temple is specifically to do the work for the dead. I combined it with a date with my wife because it reminds me of my temple covenants, and my marriage covenants ,its kind of like a mini anniversary party, and brings me and my wife closer together. In short, it's not an either or, it's a check all that apply thing.

To bring your quotation from my post completely into focus, the thread this was from was specifically about Baptists (or a Baptist) supporting Mitt, and became a comparison of Mormons and baptists. Many on the thread seemed to be saying that Mormons were always more offensive than baptists to all other Christians, so I brought up Fred Phelps and this protesting funerals stuff. I was comparing how offensive it is to go to the temple or go protest a funeral.

So, you quoted my post, you brought it up, You said we were offensive, so, I'm gonna ask. In your opinion, which is more disrespectful performing proxy ceremonies with the full intent and belief of helping the dead, quietly and behind closed doors, or Gathering in parking lots and sidewalks with bull horns to denigrate and desecrate families and the dead who died serving their country. Remember that both groups claim to be doing this out of belief, and that Fred Phelps' group are Baptists, and the people inside a building, being quiet are the Mormons, which is more offensive?

Thanks for reminding me, I need to plan this week's date :-).

[Colofornian]

Mormons believe that a) We are saved by Grace, and b) we have been commanded to do all that we can do. Often this the Book of Mormon is quoted: 2 Ne. 25: 23 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Note, Delf--and all--that Delf doesn't give the proper "order" of the above. He lists 2 Nephi 25:23 as if it was (a) grace; and (b) "all we can do" as if that's the way 2 Nephi 25:23 plays out. But the passage reads more like (b) "all we can do"--with this teeny-tiny footnote (a)--grace.

For when does grace kick in according to 2 Nephi 25:23? Only AFTER ALL you can do.

Now, tell me. What spiritual superman exists who could ever say? "Yup, I've done all I can do. Spiritually. Physically. Emotionally (love-wise). Behavior-wise. Ethically. Morally. Characteristically. Intellectually. Yup, my sins of omission have been shut out. I've done ALL I can do. OK, God. Now, that I've done all I can do, I'm eligible. I'm worthy. Go ahead. Taser me with your grace."

Ironies abound! First of all, if my works ("all I can do" is what magnetically draws grace, then it stops being grace...grace defined is undeserved love & gift & favor.). Tell you what Delf, let's see if your Mormonism can be consistent just for one Christmas. (A direct challenge).

As you make your Christmas list this season for your loved ones, apply 2 Nephi 25:23 to it. Your standard would read as such: "My loved ones are be-graced this Christmas after all they can do." Then just sit back and silently evaluate them. Have they done ALL they can do? (If not, not even a coal for their stocking).

The other irony in all of this is that of all the passages in the Book of Mormon--and a good chunk of the BoM has either been directly lifted from the Bible or is similar in theology--is that this passage is the most antithetical of what's in the Bible [All: LDS don't get their major doctrines from either the Bible or the Book of Mormon]. 2 Nephi 25:23 is the passage from hell slipped in amidst content truth (not historical truth) so as to go undetected.

[metmom]

Often this the Book of Mormon is quoted: 2 Ne. 25: 23

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

This is said to be a departure from the Bible, even though the footnotes (footnote C) goes directly to James 2:14-26

**************************************************************

It is a departure from the Bible. Works are only EVIDENCE of faith (Heb 11) not a prerequisite for entering heaven.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

and Eph 2:4- 9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast..

Gal 2:16. ...nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Gal 3:1-11 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU ." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

BTW, the above quote (So they can do it to others and their family has no say in the matter? That takes..... well... guts, shall we say?) was mine....

[greyfoxx39]

In your opinion, which is more disrespectful performing proxy ceremonies with the full intent and belief of helping the dead, quietly and behind closed doors, or Gathering in parking lots and sidewalks with bull horns to denigrate and desecrate families and the dead who died serving their country. Remember that both groups claim to be doing this out of belief, and that Fred Phelps' group are Baptists, and the people inside a building, being quiet are the Mormons, which is more offensive?

Glad you asked and brought up the Phelps example.

1.The Baptist Church leadership, and the millions of Baptists do NOT, in any way, approve of Phelps actions while the LDS leadership is in FULL approval, nay even COMMANDS the practice of proxy baptism:

"... mortals have to be saviors on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead." (LDS "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 325)

"We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to be saviors for them by being baptized for them in the flesh, that they may live according to God in the Spirit." (LDS "prophet" John Taylor, March 20,1870, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870)

"We have a great work before us in the redemption of our dead....There are fifty thousand millions of people in the spirit world...Those persons may receive their testimony, but they cannot be baptized in the spirit world, for somebody on earth must perform this ordinance for them in the flesh before they can receive part in the first resurrection and be worthy of eternal life." (LDS "prophet" Wilford Woodruff, JoD, Vol. 22, p. 234)

“Some may feel that if they pay their tithing, attend their regular meetings and other duties, give their substance to the poor, perchance spend one, two, or more years preaching in the world, that they are absolved from further duty, but the greatest and grandest duty of all is to labor for the dead!” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol II, pp 42-44).

2. What Phelps does, repugnant as it is, is done OPENLY and he and his followers suffer the consequences of their actions, such as the lawsuit just recently filed against them. They do not perform their actions in secret "behind closed doors" while the relatives of the dead go uninformed.

3. The actions of the Phelps group offend millions, but directly affect a smaller number of people. The proxy baptism of the dead, IF IT WERE KNOWN has the potential of directly affecting millions if they KNEW of this practice. Jews have protested the practice of baptizing their dead, the church leaders have agreed to stop the practice, but members continued the practice as late as 2004 after a 1995 agreement by church leaders to stop.

Jewish Group: Mormons Still Baptize Dead

From the above article:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in to be baptized in the names of the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for them to reach heaven.

 

The practice is primarily intended to give salvation to the ancestors of Mormons, but many others are included, since the church believes that individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave. Non-Mormon faiths have objected to the baptisms.

 

"It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "And even if they say they want to do somebody a favor ... it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."

 

In 1995, the Mormon church acceded to demands by Jewish leaders that the denomination stop posthumously baptizing Jews. But Helen Radkey, a Salt Lake City researcher, said on Friday that the process still hasn't ended.

 

She said she has found posthumous baptism records for 268 Dutch Jews killed in Polish concentration camps, which she described as a "small sampling." All the death camp victims, incorrectly listed in the Mormon database as dying in "Auschwitz, Germany," were posthumously baptized well after the 1995 agreement.

 

Mormon leaders reaffirmed the 1995 pact in December 2002, after Radkey found at least 20,000 Jews in the church's International Genealogical Index. The church says proxy baptisms have been performed for nearly every one of the 400 million names in the database. "The Jews have to either accept what the Mormons are doing or take legal action," Radkey said.

 

Michel's group asked Sen. Hillary Clinton (news - web sites) to intervene in the matter and the New York Democrat met last month with Sen. Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican and LDS member, though neither side would comment on the session.

 

The church directed its members after the 1995 agreement to not include the names of unrelated persons, celebrities and non-approved groups, such as Jewish Holocaust victims, for the baptisms, according to documentation the Mormon church provided Friday to The Associated Press.

 

The church also assumes that the closest living relative of the deceased being offered for proxy baptism has consented. The pact, however, "did not guarantee that no future vicarious baptisms for deceased Jews would occur," according to church documents. In a Nov. 14, 2003, letter, church elder D. Todd Christofferson wrote Michel that the church did not agree to find and remove the names of all deceased Jews in its database of 400 million names. "That would be an impossible undertaking," Christofferson wrote.

I quoted from your post:How better can you learn of Jesus than by doing his work of bringing souls unto him? how better to help the Dead by proxy work of earthly ordinances so that, if they choose to accept the gospel the ordinances that have been done for them they can progress. How better to increase your spirituality become closer to God, than to read the scriptures while waiting, and then be instructed of God, by his servants. It truly was a wonderful evening spent with my wife, serving Jesus the way he has asked us to.

The emphasis was on your assumption that what you did was (a)somehow increasing your spirituality; (b) instructed by GOD; (c) serving Jesus the way HE has asked us to; therefore benefiting you personally...NOT on your pleasant "date".

In other words, the experience to YOU, from your description, was noteworthy because of the effect on your self-esteem and YOUR eternal glory, for "doing the work", rather than benefiting the unknown dead for whom the "work" was performed. THAT is why I remembered your post so vividly.

Are mormons doing this work to benefit the dead by giving them, what they believe to be a "second chance at salvation:"

Or are they doing it to further their OWN quest for "exaltation"?

I suggest you answer your own question: Remember that both groups claim to be doing this out of belief, and that Fred Phelps' group are Baptists, and the people inside a building, being quiet are the Mormons, which is more offensive?