Mormons believe that a) We are saved by Grace, and b) we have been commanded to do all that we can do. Often this the Book of Mormon is quoted: 2 Ne. 25: 23 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.Note, Delf--and all--that Delf doesn't give the proper "order" of the above. He lists 2 Nephi 25:23 as if it was (a) grace; and (b) "all we can do" as if that's the way 2 Nephi 25:23 plays out. But the passage reads more like (b) "all we can do"--with this teeny-tiny footnote (a)--grace.
For when does grace kick in according to 2 Nephi 25:23? Only AFTER ALL you can do.
Now, tell me. What spiritual superman exists who could ever say? "Yup, I've done all I can do. Spiritually. Physically. Emotionally (love-wise). Behavior-wise. Ethically. Morally. Characteristically. Intellectually. Yup, my sins of omission have been shut out. I've done ALL I can do. OK, God. Now, that I've done all I can do, I'm eligible. I'm worthy. Go ahead. Taser me with your grace."
Ironies abound! First of all, if my works ("all I can do" is what magnetically draws grace, then it stops being grace...grace defined is undeserved love & gift & favor.). Tell you what Delf, let's see if your Mormonism can be consistent just for one Christmas. (A direct challenge).
As you make your Christmas list this season for your loved ones, apply 2 Nephi 25:23 to it. Your standard would read as such: "My loved ones are be-graced this Christmas after all they can do." Then just sit back and silently evaluate them. Have they done ALL they can do? (If not, not even a coal for their stocking).
The other irony in all of this is that of all the passages in the Book of Mormon--and a good chunk of the BoM has either been directly lifted from the Bible or is similar in theology--is that this passage is the most antithetical of what's in the Bible [All: LDS don't get their major doctrines from either the Bible or the Book of Mormon]. 2 Nephi 25:23 is the passage from hell slipped in amidst content truth (not historical truth) so as to go undetected.
I suppose Delph forgot this scripture:D&C section 132
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
"After all you can do," is NOT equivalent to "grace." It shows you how much Mormonism changes standard definitions of words.
Note, Delf--and all--that Delf doesn't give the proper "order" of the above. He lists 2 Nephi 25:23 as if it was (a) grace; and (b) "all we can do" as if that's the way 2 Nephi 25:23 plays out. But the passage reads more like (b) "all we can do"--with this teeny-tiny footnote (a)--grace.
A) Don't tell me what I believe, for you don't know.
B) I gave the proper emphasis, you need both, and Grace you can't do without, works well, a quadrapelegic can make it to heaven, and has no ability to do works which is why it's an individual "all you can do" thing.
For when does grace kick in according to 2 Nephi 25:23? Only AFTER ALL you can do.
Misread the scriptures all you want, maybe that is why you are no longer a Mormon but that is not how
WE read them.
Now, tell me. What spiritual superman exists who could ever say? "Yup, I've done all I can do. Spiritually. Physically. Emotionally (love-wise). Behavior-wise. Ethically. Morally. Characteristically. Intellectually. Yup, my sins of omission have been shut out. I've done ALL I can do. OK, God. Now, that I've done all I can do, I'm eligible. I'm worthy. Go ahead. Taser me with your grace."
I don't think I have ever seen a more specious post on FR.
You don't earn grace, that's the point of it being grace, Mormons believe in Grace, we also believe in works which evidently you never understood were you actually paying attention in church all those years? If so, I don't know how you "missed" so many of the central teachings of the church.
Ironies abound!
You have a gift for under statement.
First of all, if my works ("all I can do" is what magnetically draws grace, then it stops being grace...grace defined is undeserved love & gift & favor.). Tell you what Delf, let's see if your Mormonism can be consistent just for one Christmas. (A direct challenge).
I agree completely with your definition of Grace, and I agree that if you "Earn Grace" it is not and cannot be called grace.
I will happily apply the Gospel as I interpret it, not as you interpret it this Christmas, thank you.
As you make your Christmas list this season for your loved ones, apply 2 Nephi 25:23 to it. Your standard would read as such: "My loved ones are be-graced this Christmas after all they can do." Then just sit back and silently evaluate them. Have they done ALL they can do? (If not, not even a coal for their stocking).
I will judge them (if you insist) the same way I hope to be judged, they will all get presents as usual.
The other irony in all of this is that of all the passages in the Book of Mormon--and a good chunk of the BoM has either been directly lifted from the Bible or is similar in theology--
So, the places where the BOM quotes from Isaiah, are "most"? ROTFLOL! And imagine that, God is consistent in what he teaches! It must be a copy for he would never testify of Jesus twice (do you see how you sound here, at least to Mormons?)
is that this passage is the most antithetical of what's in the Bible [All: LDS don't get their major doctrines from either the Bible or the Book of Mormon]. 2 Nephi 25:23 is the passage from hell slipped in amidst content truth (not historical truth) so as to go undetected.
REally, please explain the existence of James 2: 14-36 in the Bible then. Here, I'll make it easy, here's a copy so you don't even have to go back up the thread.
James 2:14-26 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Compare that with the Scripture in Question from the Book of Mormon:
2 Ne. 25: 23 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
Please explain how James 2 is from God and 2 Ne 25 is of the devil.
This should be fun to watch.
Also, explain why such a stealth scripture is so emphasized by the church that is is used by missionaries everywhere as an explanation that we can't just have faith only (along with James 2), Next you will say we emphasize it so no one will notice that we are slipping it in "undetected".
Yes, your post is filled with irony, and that
is ironic!
MHG, can you post some of your excellent popcorn pictures?