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Note, Delf--and all--that Delf doesn't give the proper "order" of the above. He lists 2 Nephi 25:23 as if it was (a) grace; and (b) "all we can do" as if that's the way 2 Nephi 25:23 plays out. But the passage reads more like (b) "all we can do"--with this teeny-tiny footnote (a)--grace.

A) Don't tell me what I believe, for you don't know.
B) I gave the proper emphasis, you need both, and Grace you can't do without, works well, a quadrapelegic can make it to heaven, and has no ability to do works which is why it's an individual "all you can do" thing.

For when does grace kick in according to 2 Nephi 25:23? Only AFTER ALL you can do.

Misread the scriptures all you want, maybe that is why you are no longer a Mormon but that is not how WE read them.

Now, tell me. What spiritual superman exists who could ever say? "Yup, I've done all I can do. Spiritually. Physically. Emotionally (love-wise). Behavior-wise. Ethically. Morally. Characteristically. Intellectually. Yup, my sins of omission have been shut out. I've done ALL I can do. OK, God. Now, that I've done all I can do, I'm eligible. I'm worthy. Go ahead. Taser me with your grace."

I don't think I have ever seen a more specious post on FR.
You don't earn grace, that's the point of it being grace, Mormons believe in Grace, we also believe in works which evidently you never understood were you actually paying attention in church all those years? If so, I don't know how you "missed" so many of the central teachings of the church.

Ironies abound!

You have a gift for under statement.

First of all, if my works ("all I can do" is what magnetically draws grace, then it stops being grace...grace defined is undeserved love & gift & favor.). Tell you what Delf, let's see if your Mormonism can be consistent just for one Christmas. (A direct challenge).

I agree completely with your definition of Grace, and I agree that if you "Earn Grace" it is not and cannot be called grace.

I will happily apply the Gospel as I interpret it, not as you interpret it this Christmas, thank you.

As you make your Christmas list this season for your loved ones, apply 2 Nephi 25:23 to it. Your standard would read as such: "My loved ones are be-graced this Christmas after all they can do." Then just sit back and silently evaluate them. Have they done ALL they can do? (If not, not even a coal for their stocking).

I will judge them (if you insist) the same way I hope to be judged, they will all get presents as usual.

The other irony in all of this is that of all the passages in the Book of Mormon--and a good chunk of the BoM has either been directly lifted from the Bible or is similar in theology--

So, the places where the BOM quotes from Isaiah, are "most"? ROTFLOL! And imagine that, God is consistent in what he teaches! It must be a copy for he would never testify of Jesus twice (do you see how you sound here, at least to Mormons?)

is that this passage is the most antithetical of what's in the Bible [All: LDS don't get their major doctrines from either the Bible or the Book of Mormon]. 2 Nephi 25:23 is the passage from hell slipped in amidst content truth (not historical truth) so as to go undetected.

REally, please explain the existence of James 2: 14-36 in the Bible then. Here, I'll make it easy, here's a copy so you don't even have to go back up the thread. James 2:14-26

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Compare that with the Scripture in Question from the Book of Mormon: 2 Ne. 25: 23

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Please explain how James 2 is from God and 2 Ne 25 is of the devil.

This should be fun to watch.

Also, explain why such a stealth scripture is so emphasized by the church that is is used by missionaries everywhere as an explanation that we can't just have faith only (along with James 2), Next you will say we emphasize it so no one will notice that we are slipping it in "undetected".

Yes, your post is filled with irony, and that is ironic!

MHG, can you post some of your excellent popcorn pictures?

A) Don't tell me what I believe, for you don't know.

I don't have to guess. 2 Nephi 25:23 is clear enough. Grace kicks in ONCE you or any Mormon has done "all you can do." (Or do you still have a problem comprehending what that word "after" means?)

If I say: "I'll pick you up & give you a free ride AFTER you get the house totally clean," and the house isn't totally clean, then I guess that "free ride" ain't acomin', now is it?

I gave the proper emphasis, you need both, and Grace you can't do without, works...

My primary point here was the order of the two: You put grace first (which is a fine Biblical perspective, but doesn't reflect 2 Nephi 25:23 at all). 2 Nephi 25:23 puts "All you can do" first; grace doesn't kick in til this is accomplished. So (a) is "all you can do"; and (b) is grace. But the way 2 Nephi 25:23 frames, it, (b)--grace--doesn't show up til (a) is fully accomplished.

(b) then becomes a mere footnote because it's a "catch-22" Let us hear from your lips: Is there going to be a point in your life where you'll be able to say: "I, DelphiUser, have done ALL I can do spiritually, physically, emotionally, intellectually, good neighborly, good Samaritanly, with no sins of omission?"

Now think of the most spiritual, moral Mormon whose ever lived. Did Smith do all he could do? I mean, he could have married 100 women and didn't. He could have lived longer had he not ordered the vandalism of a printing press. He didn't do "all he could do" on behalf of the customers of Kirtland Bank. I could go on and on.

You don't earn grace, that's the point of it being grace...

Agreed.

Mormons believe in Grace, we also believe in works which evidently you never understood were you actually paying attention in church all those years? If so, I don't know how you "missed" so many of the central teachings of the church...REally, please explain the existence of James 2: 14-36 in the Bible then.

You & I aren't really arguing works other than what the true weight of what those works are. We both agree good works are a true mark of true Christians. Jesus went about doing good; His true followers will as well. But there's also non-Jesus followers who do good works...and it's not simply weighing good works vs. selfish works as if Heavenly Father grades us on a curve like some school teacher.

It's pass-fail. We steal. Even a once-convicted thief can get jail time. We hate. Even a once-convicted murderer can be put to death. "For the wages (what we earn) of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). Good works are only a by-product of our faith; not an ingredient that creates our faith or changes God's mind about who we are.

You somehow think that it's works + grace = salvation, as if the greatest gift of all--salvation--can be paid for by works.

Imagine a son @ Christmas time. You say to him, "Hey, I got a great deal on that gift. Normally $20,000. I'm going to give you that gift in exchange for 40 hours of labor that's going to be worth about $400 to me. You are be-graced with this $10,000 gift after ALL you can do for me in a week's labor."

Now imagine the response of your son: "Hey, I thought this was a gift." And you say, "It is. But you know, we're Mormons. Faith without works is dead, you know...or are you not keeping up with your memorization of James 2?" "But dad," he says. "You told me that gifts are unearned." And you respond, "Well, grace IS unearned. But come on, are you not keeping up with 2 Nephi 25:23, either? This Unearned gift saved your Christmas day, young fella, but ONLY after all you can do for a week. And I'm letting you off easy. 2 Nephi 25:23 puts no timetable into this matter."

If fathers ran Christmases the way Smith says in 2 Nephi 25:23 that Heavenly Father runs salvation, nobody would get anything until they've done ALL they can do. That concept is "nasty" on two fronts:

(1) Whereas in the Bible, it's God's grace that forgives us, empowers us and enables us to do good works; in the Book of Mormon it's only an after-burner after reaching perfection (after doing ALL you can do). (2) "ALL" you can do: The New Testament makes it very clear that the Law (doing all you can do) doesn't bring life. In fact, it kills. (Read Galatians again). It's not that the law itself is bad. But if you're a thief, and you steal time from God, that law convicts you. Guilty.

Please explain how James 2 is from God and 2 Ne 25 is of the devil. This should be fun to watch.

Allow me to explain it this way: You go to work for a new boss. You've heard that of any employer in the world, this guy gives the best Christmas bonus EVER. I mean, this bonus is so good, it's out of this world. The hours aren't the best (long). The work is very difficult. The pay? (Ya gotta be kidding?) But wow. That bonus. It's something else.

Well, every year, ya hear about THE BONUS. But every Christmas, you don't see any co-worker who actually gets it. Oh, the promise still exists. He's gonna give it alright. You finally decide to read the promise firsthand, instead of relying upon hearsay. It reads: "You will receive a free Christmas bonus better than anything this world can offer you..." You react, "Oh...boy!!!" Then you continue reading: "...AFTER all you can do as an employee." Now you start to sweat. You think about the times you've come in late. You think about the extra overtime hours you didn't always put in. You think about the goofing off here & there. Not only that...in fact even worse...is you hear that HIS standards as boss are quite a bit higher than your immediate supervisor's standard and your own standard. In fact, when you start to even just scan the 66-book Employees Manual, you realize, "Oops. I'm cooked. I don't even measure up to my supervisor's standards and my own personal standards, let alone THE BOSS' And, now that I've read the fine print of what it means to actually 'DO ALL I can do,' there ain't nobody coming away with that Christmas bonus save the Owner's Son."

Also, explain why such a stealth scripture is so emphasized by the church that is is used by missionaries everywhere as an explanation that we can't just have faith only (along with James 2), Next you will say we emphasize it so no one will notice that we are slipping it in "undetected."

You've already conceded that the BoM lifts parts of Isaiah & plants them in the BoM wholesale. The BoM does the same things in lifting direct King James English phrases & verses from the Gospels (as if the South American/Central American ancient Mormons scratched out 17th century thees & thous on gold plates). So those verses contain content truth. A fresh reader coming along reads truth. In one chapter of the BoM, they'll read something from the book of Isaiah, and then the next chapter something from one of the gospels. Sandwiched in between can be a passage like 2 Nephi 25:23. That is what I mean by "slipping" something in.