In your opinion, which is more disrespectful performing proxy ceremonies with the full intent and belief of helping the dead, quietly and behind closed doors, or Gathering in parking lots and sidewalks with bull horns to denigrate and desecrate families and the dead who died serving their country. Remember that both groups claim to be doing this out of belief, and that Fred Phelps' group are Baptists, and the people inside a building, being quiet are the Mormons, which is more offensive? Glad you asked and brought up the Phelps example.
1.The Baptist Church leadership, and the millions of Baptists do NOT, in any way, approve of Phelps actions while the LDS leadership is in FULL approval, nay even COMMANDS the practice of proxy baptism:
"... mortals have to be saviors on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead." (LDS "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 325)
"We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to be saviors for them by being baptized for them in the flesh, that they may live according to God in the Spirit." (LDS "prophet" John Taylor, March 20,1870, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870)
"We have a great work before us in the redemption of our dead....There are fifty thousand millions of people in the spirit world...Those persons may receive their testimony, but they cannot be baptized in the spirit world, for somebody on earth must perform this ordinance for them in the flesh before they can receive part in the first resurrection and be worthy of eternal life." (LDS "prophet" Wilford Woodruff, JoD, Vol. 22, p. 234)
“Some may feel that if they pay their tithing, attend their regular meetings and other duties, give their substance to the poor, perchance spend one, two, or more years preaching in the world, that they are absolved from further duty, but the greatest and grandest duty of all is to labor for the dead!” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol II, pp 42-44).
2. What Phelps does, repugnant as it is, is done OPENLY and he and his followers suffer the consequences of their actions, such as the lawsuit just recently filed against them. They do not perform their actions in secret "behind closed doors" while the relatives of the dead go uninformed.
3. The actions of the Phelps group offend millions, but directly affect a smaller number of people. The proxy baptism of the dead, IF IT WERE KNOWN has the potential of directly affecting millions if they KNEW of this practice. Jews have protested the practice of baptizing their dead, the church leaders have agreed to stop the practice, but members continued the practice as late as 2004 after a 1995 agreement by church leaders to stop.
Jewish Group: Mormons Still Baptize Dead
From the above article:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in to be baptized in the names of the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for them to reach heaven.
The practice is primarily intended to give salvation to the ancestors of Mormons, but many others are included, since the church believes that individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave. Non-Mormon faiths have objected to the baptisms.
"It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "And even if they say they want to do somebody a favor ... it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."
In 1995, the Mormon church acceded to demands by Jewish leaders that the denomination stop posthumously baptizing Jews. But Helen Radkey, a Salt Lake City researcher, said on Friday that the process still hasn't ended.
She said she has found posthumous baptism records for 268 Dutch Jews killed in Polish concentration camps, which she described as a "small sampling." All the death camp victims, incorrectly listed in the Mormon database as dying in "Auschwitz, Germany," were posthumously baptized well after the 1995 agreement.
Mormon leaders reaffirmed the 1995 pact in December 2002, after Radkey found at least 20,000 Jews in the church's International Genealogical Index. The church says proxy baptisms have been performed for nearly every one of the 400 million names in the database. "The Jews have to either accept what the Mormons are doing or take legal action," Radkey said.
Michel's group asked Sen. Hillary Clinton (news - web sites) to intervene in the matter and the New York Democrat met last month with Sen. Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican and LDS member, though neither side would comment on the session.
The church directed its members after the 1995 agreement to not include the names of unrelated persons, celebrities and non-approved groups, such as Jewish Holocaust victims, for the baptisms, according to documentation the Mormon church provided Friday to The Associated Press.
The church also assumes that the closest living relative of the deceased being offered for proxy baptism has consented. The pact, however, "did not guarantee that no future vicarious baptisms for deceased Jews would occur," according to church documents. In a Nov. 14, 2003, letter, church elder D. Todd Christofferson wrote Michel that the church did not agree to find and remove the names of all deceased Jews in its database of 400 million names. "That would be an impossible undertaking," Christofferson wrote.
I quoted from your post:How better can you learn of Jesus than by doing his work of bringing souls unto him? how better to help the Dead by proxy work of earthly ordinances so that, if they choose to accept the gospel the ordinances that have been done for them they can progress. How better to increase your spirituality become closer to God, than to read the scriptures while waiting, and then be instructed of God, by his servants. It truly was a wonderful evening spent with my wife, serving Jesus the way he has asked us to.
The emphasis was on your assumption that what you did was (a)somehow increasing your spirituality; (b) instructed by GOD; (c) serving Jesus the way HE has asked us to; therefore benefiting you personally...NOT on your pleasant "date".
In other words, the experience to YOU, from your description, was noteworthy because of the effect on your self-esteem and YOUR eternal glory, for "doing the work", rather than benefiting the unknown dead for whom the "work" was performed. THAT is why I remembered your post so vividly.
Are mormons doing this work to benefit the dead by giving them, what they believe to be a "second chance at salvation:"
Or are they doing it to further their OWN quest for "exaltation"?
I suggest you answer your own question: Remember that both groups claim to be doing this out of belief, and that Fred Phelps' group are Baptists, and the people inside a building, being quiet are the Mormons, which is more offensive?
Glad you asked and brought up the Phelps example.
1.The Baptist Church leadership, and the millions of Baptists do NOT, in any way, approve of Phelps actions while the LDS leadership is in FULL approval, nay even COMMANDS the practice of proxy baptism:
GREAT! So now you start to see a difference between a church and a faith, Mormons keep saying we are Christians for we believe in Jesus Christ, and many on this forum keep saying: no your not you don't believe X which all Christians believe. The really sad thing is they have no more right to say I am not a christian than Phelps has to say both of us are not Christian (for that is his position).
2. What Phelps does, repugnant as it is, is done OPENLY and he and his followers suffer the consequences of their actions, such as the lawsuit just recently filed against them. They do not perform their actions in secret "behind closed doors" while the relatives of the dead go uninformed.
OK, lets get something straight, unless you are not descended from Adam, you are my relative some way or another, probably much more recently than that (Noah comes to mind...) So everyone is my relative, if I am a descendent of John Jacob Jinglehimer Smith, why should you be able to stop me from doing his work just because his name is your name too? Besides, we PUBLISH everything that has been done ONLINE on the busiest and best Geological web site in the world
familysearch.org/
As for the Jews, I am a direct descendent of Abraham, and I have my genealogy to prove it, if I do his work, i should have that right and everyone else I can connect to as well, why not? Because you don't believe? Fine, you go off somewhere and have an anti Mormon vicarious unbaptisem for your family, by whatever authority you can scrape together, and you will not hear a peep from me about it, laughter maybe, but no complaints.
3. The actions of the Phelps group offend millions, but directly affect a smaller number of people. The proxy baptism of the dead, IF IT WERE KNOWN has the potential of directly affecting millions if they KNEW of this practice. Jews have protested the practice of baptizing their dead, the church leaders have agreed to stop the practice, but members continued the practice as late as 2004 after a 1995 agreement by church leaders to stop.
The protest by the Jewish community was because the rolls compiled by an organization collecting names of those who died in the holocaust were submitted by a well meaning member to be done, and they thought it was in poor taste, and I agree. The names they are finding now were submitted by descendants, and if another descendant objects well... Sorry about that, but what do they expect us to do, tell Jewish descended members they can't do temple work? Not gonna happen
"It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "And even if they say they want to do somebody a favor ... it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."
What a quote, this guy fits right in with your group telling me if I love my ancestors or not...
The emphasis was on your assumption that what you did was
(a)somehow increasing your spirituality;
(b) instructed by GOD;
(c) serving Jesus the way HE has asked us to; (d) therefore benefiting you personally...NOT on your pleasant "date". How about E, all the above? I had a good time with my wife and we enjoyed it, is it your assertion that you can't enjoy doing God's work?
B
In other words, the experience to YOU, from your description, was noteworthy because of the effect on your self-esteem and YOUR eternal glory, for "doing the work", rather than benefiting the unknown dead for whom the "work" was performed. THAT is why I remembered your post so vividly.
Well, at least you remembered it.
Are Mormons doing this work to benefit the dead by giving them, what they believe to be a "second chance at salvation:"
It's not a second chance, it's the only chance, and yes, that is why, I could have done many things with my wife and do not *always* go to the temple. There is a down side to going to the temple, you see, I have a very resonant voice, and the celestial room is a place for revelation, not conversation, so if I want to talk to my wife, I need to leave.
Or are they doing it to further their OWN quest for "exaltation"?
Why are things always Either or with you people?
I suggest you answer your own question: Remember that both groups claim to be doing this out of belief, and that Fred Phelps' group are Baptists, and the people inside a building, being quiet are the Mormons, which is more offensive?
Interesting, I ask A question, and you decline to answer, but instead ask me to answer my own questions, very well, I will if you will.
IMHO what Mormons do inside their temples is beautiful and completely innocuous, for if we are wrong, at least we are not out knocking on door while we are doing it, and since if we are wrong we have no authority, it does not matter what we are doing, as long as our intent is to be respectful, and we do it quietly.
On the other hand, if we are right, then we are performing a service to all those whose names we perform ordinances for and we are acting according to God's commands.
Reverend Phelps and his followers however are trying to be disrespectful of the dead and the mourners in the loudest and most obnoxious way possible, they do not act in any way discretely, and on top of that, they intend to cause emotional pain and suffering on those they disagree with, it does not matter if they are wrong or right in their doctrine, their behavior is such that they are abhorrent to the very notion of good manners and propriety.
There, your turn.