Single Word Change in Book of Mormon Speaks Volumes

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | November 8, 2007 | Peggy Fletcher Stack

[Old Mountain man]

Especially if you read the whole thing as opposed to whatever your preacher selects as a verse of the week.

[MHGinTN]

More proof that Mormonism Apologists haven't a clue what the Bible means by 'works' of the spirit:

"... a quadrapelegic can make it to heaven, and has no ability to do works which is why it's an individual 'all you can do' thing." Having or not having arms and legs isn't relevant to the Works of The Spirit within the human spirit transforming the human soul by the renewing of the mind of the soul. Amazing how spiritual blindness will expose itself occasionally don'tchaknow! The spin now should be interesting ...

[DelphiUser]

MHG, I really have to ask, so I hope you will respond... Sevenbak Said "Could it be that obedience and faith is also as important as money to help the work progress as well as the soul progress?" ...

MHGinTN Said: Could it be that you're clueless, that Ananias and Sapphira chose to LIE and were called for it? If you read the passages with a non-cult mind, you can even hear Peter's words to them regarding the LIE being the point of their SIN against the Holy Spirit's leadership. They were not ordered to sell all they had, in fact Peter even tells them 'when you held the property you sold, was it not yours to do with as YOU saw fit?' They tried to look like they were giving the full sale price to the common funds while withholding a portion for themselves, but the LIE that they had given the entire sale price was the point of condemnation. Of course, no Mormonism Apologist would comprehend that if it doesn't fit the lie the apologist wants to promote regarding commandment to give 100%! There was NEVER such a command, Mormon.

If I have the Scripture you two are talking about right, it is Acts 5:1-10

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Your Assertion here is that all things were not held in common, so I am asking you what does acts 2:44 mean to those with a non-cult mind? Acts 2:44,45

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Here are my two questions: 1) I understand that you do not believe my interpretation, but what does it mean to a non Mormon that the believers held all things in Common?

2) Do Orthodox Christians believe the early Christians sold everything and pooled their resources for the common good, or not.

For that is what Mormons believe is being spoken of in Acts 5:1-10.

Now you continue by calling us Cult members and Liars, I keep reading this, and I have a logical problem with it, here is what you said:
But that was a typical Mormon try to fabricate a lie to be supported by scripture mischaracterized by the apologist cultish mindset.

Now lets be reasonable, can someone who is brainwashed lie? I mean they believe what they are saying, therefore it is not a lie, for lying takes intent. Can they be wrong? Absolutely! Saying that a cult member is brainwashed and is lying is just confusing things, please stick to one or the other at least for the duration of one sentence.

[metmom]

You really didn't comprehend that all true believing Mormons deem you as "Satanic," now did you?

Seems I've heard that somewhere before. Hmmmm, now where could that be, I wonder.

[MHGinTN]

This is what I was explaining about the poster ... the clear try at mischaracterizing what I did write by asserting that I wrote something I didn't write: "Your Assertion here is that all things were not held in common ..."

There was no command from Peter or James or any other to 'sell all and have it held in common' as clearly shown by Peter's instruction to Ananias. But the poster cannot get traction on the clear truth of the scripture passage so he mischaracterizes what someone wrote in order to try and manufacture a controvery there.

[Grig]

“So they can do it to others and their family has no say in the matter? That takes..... well... guts, shall we say?”

You are being fed a distorted and hostile view of us by some posters here.

It is important to realize that a proxy baptism doesn’t force anything on the person it is done for. It is of no effect at all unless that deceased person (now in the spirit world) accepts what was done on their behalf. If they accept, then it becomes as if they were baptized, if they choose to reject it, it is as if nothing was done. The choice is theirs to make, not their family’s.

Either way we don’t really know so the church doesn’t count them as members. All that is done is a simple baptism, almost identical to how we baptize a living person, except in a baptism for the dead the wording is changed a little to reflect that a living person is baptized in baptized in behalf of someone who is dead.

Why should someone’s family have a veto over what choices they can make regarding religion? Why should someone be offended by someone else doing a proxy baptism if they think the practice has no validity and will change nothing? If someone things it is a valid practice, they should be glad it was done, if they think it is invalid, they should at least accept it as gesture of love towards that deceased person.

“What about those poor souls who know one knows existed because birth records were lost or never kept?”

We are encouraged research our own family tree and have proxy baptisms done for our ancestors so that is the source for the vast majority of proxy baptisms we currently do. Yes there are many people whose lives have no existing record, but this work will continue on to the end of the millennial reign of Christ. Resurrected persons will be able to provide missing information, and if necessary revelation from God is also there to ensure that all receive a fair chance.

“What’s the point of even becoming Mormon if one can have it done by proxy?”

It isn’t a second chance. If you get a fair chance here and reject it, then you have made your choice and nothing done after your life will change anything. You will be the same person in the spirit world as you are here. Same attitudes, same likes and dislikes. If someone can’t bring themselves to repent of their sins and accept the gospel here when given the chance, they aren’t going to react any differently to it in the spirit world.

If someone else accepts it is true, what good reason would there be for not becoming a Mormon? Also, accepting the fullness of the gospel and living it brings great blessings and joy into a person’s life.

[Colofornian]

A) Don't tell me what I believe, for you don't know.

I don't have to guess. 2 Nephi 25:23 is clear enough. Grace kicks in ONCE you or any Mormon has done "all you can do." (Or do you still have a problem comprehending what that word "after" means?)

If I say: "I'll pick you up & give you a free ride AFTER you get the house totally clean," and the house isn't totally clean, then I guess that "free ride" ain't acomin', now is it?

I gave the proper emphasis, you need both, and Grace you can't do without, works...

My primary point here was the order of the two: You put grace first (which is a fine Biblical perspective, but doesn't reflect 2 Nephi 25:23 at all). 2 Nephi 25:23 puts "All you can do" first; grace doesn't kick in til this is accomplished. So (a) is "all you can do"; and (b) is grace. But the way 2 Nephi 25:23 frames, it, (b)--grace--doesn't show up til (a) is fully accomplished.

(b) then becomes a mere footnote because it's a "catch-22" Let us hear from your lips: Is there going to be a point in your life where you'll be able to say: "I, DelphiUser, have done ALL I can do spiritually, physically, emotionally, intellectually, good neighborly, good Samaritanly, with no sins of omission?"

Now think of the most spiritual, moral Mormon whose ever lived. Did Smith do all he could do? I mean, he could have married 100 women and didn't. He could have lived longer had he not ordered the vandalism of a printing press. He didn't do "all he could do" on behalf of the customers of Kirtland Bank. I could go on and on.

You don't earn grace, that's the point of it being grace...

Agreed.

Mormons believe in Grace, we also believe in works which evidently you never understood were you actually paying attention in church all those years? If so, I don't know how you "missed" so many of the central teachings of the church...REally, please explain the existence of James 2: 14-36 in the Bible then.

You & I aren't really arguing works other than what the true weight of what those works are. We both agree good works are a true mark of true Christians. Jesus went about doing good; His true followers will as well. But there's also non-Jesus followers who do good works...and it's not simply weighing good works vs. selfish works as if Heavenly Father grades us on a curve like some school teacher.

It's pass-fail. We steal. Even a once-convicted thief can get jail time. We hate. Even a once-convicted murderer can be put to death. "For the wages (what we earn) of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). Good works are only a by-product of our faith; not an ingredient that creates our faith or changes God's mind about who we are.

You somehow think that it's works + grace = salvation, as if the greatest gift of all--salvation--can be paid for by works.

Imagine a son @ Christmas time. You say to him, "Hey, I got a great deal on that gift. Normally $20,000. I'm going to give you that gift in exchange for 40 hours of labor that's going to be worth about $400 to me. You are be-graced with this $10,000 gift after ALL you can do for me in a week's labor."

Now imagine the response of your son: "Hey, I thought this was a gift." And you say, "It is. But you know, we're Mormons. Faith without works is dead, you know...or are you not keeping up with your memorization of James 2?" "But dad," he says. "You told me that gifts are unearned." And you respond, "Well, grace IS unearned. But come on, are you not keeping up with 2 Nephi 25:23, either? This Unearned gift saved your Christmas day, young fella, but ONLY after all you can do for a week. And I'm letting you off easy. 2 Nephi 25:23 puts no timetable into this matter."

If fathers ran Christmases the way Smith says in 2 Nephi 25:23 that Heavenly Father runs salvation, nobody would get anything until they've done ALL they can do. That concept is "nasty" on two fronts:

(1) Whereas in the Bible, it's God's grace that forgives us, empowers us and enables us to do good works; in the Book of Mormon it's only an after-burner after reaching perfection (after doing ALL you can do). (2) "ALL" you can do: The New Testament makes it very clear that the Law (doing all you can do) doesn't bring life. In fact, it kills. (Read Galatians again). It's not that the law itself is bad. But if you're a thief, and you steal time from God, that law convicts you. Guilty.

Please explain how James 2 is from God and 2 Ne 25 is of the devil. This should be fun to watch.

Allow me to explain it this way: You go to work for a new boss. You've heard that of any employer in the world, this guy gives the best Christmas bonus EVER. I mean, this bonus is so good, it's out of this world. The hours aren't the best (long). The work is very difficult. The pay? (Ya gotta be kidding?) But wow. That bonus. It's something else.

Well, every year, ya hear about THE BONUS. But every Christmas, you don't see any co-worker who actually gets it. Oh, the promise still exists. He's gonna give it alright. You finally decide to read the promise firsthand, instead of relying upon hearsay. It reads: "You will receive a free Christmas bonus better than anything this world can offer you..." You react, "Oh...boy!!!" Then you continue reading: "...AFTER all you can do as an employee." Now you start to sweat. You think about the times you've come in late. You think about the extra overtime hours you didn't always put in. You think about the goofing off here & there. Not only that...in fact even worse...is you hear that HIS standards as boss are quite a bit higher than your immediate supervisor's standard and your own standard. In fact, when you start to even just scan the 66-book Employees Manual, you realize, "Oops. I'm cooked. I don't even measure up to my supervisor's standards and my own personal standards, let alone THE BOSS' And, now that I've read the fine print of what it means to actually 'DO ALL I can do,' there ain't nobody coming away with that Christmas bonus save the Owner's Son."

Also, explain why such a stealth scripture is so emphasized by the church that is is used by missionaries everywhere as an explanation that we can't just have faith only (along with James 2), Next you will say we emphasize it so no one will notice that we are slipping it in "undetected."

You've already conceded that the BoM lifts parts of Isaiah & plants them in the BoM wholesale. The BoM does the same things in lifting direct King James English phrases & verses from the Gospels (as if the South American/Central American ancient Mormons scratched out 17th century thees & thous on gold plates). So those verses contain content truth. A fresh reader coming along reads truth. In one chapter of the BoM, they'll read something from the book of Isaiah, and then the next chapter something from one of the gospels. Sandwiched in between can be a passage like 2 Nephi 25:23. That is what I mean by "slipping" something in.

[metmom]

Lot was called *righteous*.

II Peter 2:7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men

Help me here. I'm drawing a blank on the record righteous deeds performed by Lot in Genesis

[Colofornian]

Lot was called *righteous*. II Peter 2:7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men. Help me here. I'm drawing a blank on the record righteous deeds performed by Lot in Genesis.

Well, the most fellowship-oriented thing Lot did was to agree to drop out of close fellowship w/his uncle Abram. Lot's herdsmen & Abram's were quarreling in Gen. 13. So, certainly he was flexible/teachable to accepting Abram's advice that their collective herdsmen no longer quarrel.

But other than that, you ask an appropriate question. And it's one that LDS should take note of. 2 Peter 2:7-8 make it quite clear that Lot's righteousness was inward: God noted that when Lot lived first near Sodom & then in Sodom, he was oppressed & distressed & tormented by the unrighteous deeds he saw around him.

Lot's righteousness wasn't in a laundry list of outward righteous deeds that would build up his own glory; rather, it was in inwardly reacting to unrighteousness--the same kind of righteous abhorrence that God has over man's unrighteous deeds.

[Colofornian]

The question I have, and this applies to anyone who claims extra-Scriptural revelation, is why it took so long for this to be made known? If God had something so important and true to say, why didn’t Jesus just tell us? Why wait 1800 years to do it? Did all those people who weren’t Mormons die and go to hell for all that time? What kind of God would that be?

What's more, if the LDS church is supposedly a "true restoration" of the early church, why was there no record of baptism for the dead being performed in South/Central America in Book of Mormon times? Why no mention of this practice in that book if it's the FULNESS of the everlasting gospel? Why no mention of any "second chances" in the BoM?

[MHGinTN]

When Lot believed God that Sodom was about to be destroyed and he took his family out, he ‘believed God and it was counted for him righteousness’ in the same fashion God applied His righteousness to Abraham, retroactively from the event of the cross to redeem the ‘chit’ He issued to Abraham, and Lot, and David, and ... well, you get the picture, but sadly the Mormons don’t.

[DelphiUser]

It is a departure from the Bible. Works are only EVIDENCE of faith (Heb 11) not a prerequisite for entering heaven.

LOL! I hate it when people try to tell me what my Bible says, like I have not read it.

Is this in the Bible? (For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.)
How about this (And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.)
The Bible Says you will be rewarded according to your What? Oh, WORKS. The Bible says you will be judged according to what? Oh, WORKS again.

You will now undoubtedly say that I am preaching works only, and of a truth, I tell you I am not, you need, get this BOTH.

I truly hope you will reevaluate your position and start to bring forth works as evidence of your faith.

[DelphiUser]

Glad you asked and brought up the Phelps example.

1.The Baptist Church leadership, and the millions of Baptists do NOT, in any way, approve of Phelps actions while the LDS leadership is in FULL approval, nay even COMMANDS the practice of proxy baptism:

GREAT! So now you start to see a difference between a church and a faith, Mormons keep saying we are Christians for we believe in Jesus Christ, and many on this forum keep saying: no your not you don't believe X which all Christians believe. The really sad thing is they have no more right to say I am not a christian than Phelps has to say both of us are not Christian (for that is his position).

2. What Phelps does, repugnant as it is, is done OPENLY and he and his followers suffer the consequences of their actions, such as the lawsuit just recently filed against them. They do not perform their actions in secret "behind closed doors" while the relatives of the dead go uninformed.

OK, lets get something straight, unless you are not descended from Adam, you are my relative some way or another, probably much more recently than that (Noah comes to mind...) So everyone is my relative, if I am a descendent of John Jacob Jinglehimer Smith, why should you be able to stop me from doing his work just because his name is your name too? Besides, we PUBLISH everything that has been done ONLINE on the busiest and best Geological web site in the world familysearch.org/

As for the Jews, I am a direct descendent of Abraham, and I have my genealogy to prove it, if I do his work, i should have that right and everyone else I can connect to as well, why not? Because you don't believe? Fine, you go off somewhere and have an anti Mormon vicarious unbaptisem for your family, by whatever authority you can scrape together, and you will not hear a peep from me about it, laughter maybe, but no complaints.

3. The actions of the Phelps group offend millions, but directly affect a smaller number of people. The proxy baptism of the dead, IF IT WERE KNOWN has the potential of directly affecting millions if they KNEW of this practice. Jews have protested the practice of baptizing their dead, the church leaders have agreed to stop the practice, but members continued the practice as late as 2004 after a 1995 agreement by church leaders to stop.

The protest by the Jewish community was because the rolls compiled by an organization collecting names of those who died in the holocaust were submitted by a well meaning member to be done, and they thought it was in poor taste, and I agree. The names they are finding now were submitted by descendants, and if another descendant objects well... Sorry about that, but what do they expect us to do, tell Jewish descended members they can't do temple work? Not gonna happen

"It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "And even if they say they want to do somebody a favor ... it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."

What a quote, this guy fits right in with your group telling me if I love my ancestors or not...

The emphasis was on your assumption that what you did was
(a)somehow increasing your spirituality;
(b) instructed by GOD;
(c) serving Jesus the way HE has asked us to; (d) therefore benefiting you personally...NOT on your pleasant "date". How about E, all the above? I had a good time with my wife and we enjoyed it, is it your assertion that you can't enjoy doing God's work?
B In other words, the experience to YOU, from your description, was noteworthy because of the effect on your self-esteem and YOUR eternal glory, for "doing the work", rather than benefiting the unknown dead for whom the "work" was performed. THAT is why I remembered your post so vividly.

Well, at least you remembered it.

Are Mormons doing this work to benefit the dead by giving them, what they believe to be a "second chance at salvation:"

It's not a second chance, it's the only chance, and yes, that is why, I could have done many things with my wife and do not *always* go to the temple. There is a down side to going to the temple, you see, I have a very resonant voice, and the celestial room is a place for revelation, not conversation, so if I want to talk to my wife, I need to leave.

Or are they doing it to further their OWN quest for "exaltation"?

Why are things always Either or with you people?

I suggest you answer your own question: Remember that both groups claim to be doing this out of belief, and that Fred Phelps' group are Baptists, and the people inside a building, being quiet are the Mormons, which is more offensive?

Interesting, I ask A question, and you decline to answer, but instead ask me to answer my own questions, very well, I will if you will.
IMHO what Mormons do inside their temples is beautiful and completely innocuous, for if we are wrong, at least we are not out knocking on door while we are doing it, and since if we are wrong we have no authority, it does not matter what we are doing, as long as our intent is to be respectful, and we do it quietly.

On the other hand, if we are right, then we are performing a service to all those whose names we perform ordinances for and we are acting according to God's commands.

Reverend Phelps and his followers however are trying to be disrespectful of the dead and the mourners in the loudest and most obnoxious way possible, they do not act in any way discretely, and on top of that, they intend to cause emotional pain and suffering on those they disagree with, it does not matter if they are wrong or right in their doctrine, their behavior is such that they are abhorrent to the very notion of good manners and propriety.

There, your turn.

[DelphiUser]

I bet they're out trying to dig up another Christian leader to endorse Mitt now that the National Right to Life Committee is going for Fred.

I hadn't heard, wow! Go Fred!

Better Fred then Red (Rudy), IMHO, of course.

[DelphiUser]

Yet they fail to comprehend the broadside that this one verse constitutes against the entire Protestant & Catholic & Orthodox churches! If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said that they were but one church among many, I wonder what the response would be? But the LDS have never left that option open.

Oh pulese! From my understanding, the Catholics think you and I and everyone who is not Catholic are going to hell until recently, any unbaptized infant who died was going to join us, too.

There are also Plenty of protestant churches with equally damning statements about anyone who is not e member of their church, I have yet to see you broadside any of them, care to ping me to a few posts in say the last month where you do? If so I will publicly apologize for misjudging you.

[DelphiUser]

Why PRIVATE, if it was done in full view of the rest of us?

I wanted him / her to feel unconstrained and not have to worry about me claiming abuse if he got personal back.

I just thought it was the right way to handle it

(Put down the conspiracy theory and step away from the aluminum foil gun mister!)

[DelphiUser]

Today, the LDS organization 'sells' EXALTION, a BETTER level than plain, ol' Heaven 101, to those who will pay 10% of their income.

Many there are who will pay their tithes and not go to the highest degree, the first example I can think of is myself, for I know my own sins more intimately than anyone else I know...

[DelphiUser]

More proof that Mormonism Apologists haven't a clue what the Bible means by 'works' of the spirit: Works of the Spirit, well, you are proving that one of us can't read... and it's not me.

"... a quadrapelegic can make it to heaven, and has no ability to do works which is why it's an individual 'all you can do' thing." Having or not having arms and legs isn't relevant to the Works of The Spirit within the human spirit transforming the human soul by the renewing of the mind of the soul. Amazing how spiritual blindness will expose itself occasionally don'tchaknow! The spin now should be interesting ...

Yes, it has been, you expect me to defend a positions that i do not hold, well nope, the works I am talking about are very well explained in: James 2:14-26

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James two lists some specific works, one by a harlot which were counted as good. now you might argue that everything is spiritual in nature, but that I can see is your only hope of supporting your assertion that it was "Works of the Spirit" I was talking about.

[DelphiUser]

This is what I was explaining about the poster ... the clear try at mischaracterizing what I did write by asserting that I wrote something I didn't write: "Your Assertion here is that all things were not held in common ..."

I asked for Clarification, which this post is not providing...

There was no command from Peter or James or any other to 'sell all and have it held in common' as clearly shown by Peter's instruction to Ananias. But the poster cannot get traction on the clear truth of the scripture passage so he mischaracterizes what someone wrote in order to try and manufacture a controvery there.

I am sorry, but I cannot get the picture of an incompetent lawyer multiplying his words needlessly so no one will know what he was saying, can you explain your understanding of how the Early saints of peter and Ananias' time were living financially?

There, I asked without mischaracterizing anything, I hope.

[DelphiUser]

I don't have to guess. 2 Nephi 25:23 is clear enough. Grace kicks in ONCE you or any Mormon has done "all you can do." (Or do you still have a problem comprehending what that word "after" means?)

Apparently you don't understand elibethien english very well.

If I say: "I'll pick you up & give you a free ride AFTER you get the house totally clean," and the house isn't totally clean, then I guess that "free ride" ain't acomin', now is it?

That would depend on how much charity you possessed, and how badly I needed to get somewhere...

I'm willing to bet and indeed am grateful that Jesus is kinder than you are.

My primary point here was the order of the two: You put grace first (which is a fine Biblical perspective, but doesn't reflect 2 Nephi 25:23 at all). 2 Nephi 25:23 puts "All you can do" first; grace doesn't kick in til this is accomplished. So (a) is "all you can do"; and (b) is grace. But the way 2 Nephi 25:23 frames, it, (b)--grace--doesn't show up til (a) is fully accomplished.

And I think you are finding points of difference where there are none, the Church cross referenced with James 2, which means they teach the same principle, we use both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, so our doctrine has to be compatible with both (and the PGP, and D&C). As a member of the Church who has been certified to teach people what we believe, I am telling you you have it wrong, Grace is more important, but you still need both Grace and Works.

b) then becomes a mere footnote because it's a "catch-22" Let us hear from your lips: Is there going to be a point in your life where you'll be able to say: "I, DelphiUser, have done ALL I can do spiritually, physically, emotionally, intellectually, good neighborly, good Samaritanly, with no sins of omission?"

Absolutely! That is what repentance is all about. when we partake of the sacrament every Sunday, we recommit ourselves to the very covenants we make at baptism, and we are repenting of all our sins as we do so, Every sunday, we get to start over trying to be perfect, if all our sins followed us around like some living Jacob Morely, there would be no way to ever do Jesus' command to be perfect, now would we? Worse, we would be putting the lie to his atonement by not believing that his sacrifice for us was of any efficacy!

please tell me that you believe that when you repent your sins are swept away by the atonement of Jesus Christ, please tell me you do not carry that awful burden with you from day to day, please tell me for I cannot bear the thought of someone who believes themselves to be a Christian to hold themselves to an impossible standard with no way to achieve it. For with God, all things are possible, God can even save me, and truly, that is a miracle, and I praise God for it.

Now think of the most spiritual, moral Mormon whose ever lived. Did Smith do all he could do? <Snip>I could go on and on.

We know, we know...

I Said: You don't earn grace, that's the point of it being grace...

You Said: Agreed.

Wait a minute did we just agree on a point of doctrine? we just made the Devil mad by freezing Hell over like that without any warning and all.

You somehow think that it's works + grace = salvation, as if the greatest gift of all--salvation--can be paid for by works.

I said you guys would go here, if I tell you I will sell you something for $20 and a date with your sister, that does not mean $40 dollars will do it, you will need $20 and a date with your sister and nothing else.

Works + Grace = Salvation

Works != Salvation

Grace != Salvation

It takes both. I am not the one that is saying that, God is the one that is saying that, here: Revelations 20:12-13

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I would indeed be telling an untruth if I said there was no possibility that I am misinterpreting the Bible, but you would also be telling a untruth to say what I am saying has no support from the Bible. Thus we are looking at the same book and bringing away different interpretations, this is why there are so many "Christian" churches all using the Bible.

Imagine a son @ Christmas time. You say to him, "Hey, I got a great deal on that gift. Normally $20,000. I'm going to give you that gift in exchange for 40 hours of labor that's going to be worth about $400 to me. You are be-graced with this $10,000 gift after ALL you can do for me in a week's labor."

Now imagine the response of your son: "Hey, I thought this was a gift." And you say, "It is. But you know, we're Mormons. Faith without works is dead, you know...or are you not keeping up with your memorization of James 2?" "But dad," he says. "You told me that gifts are unearned." And you respond, "Well, grace IS unearned. But come on, are you not keeping up with 2 Nephi 25:23, either? This Unearned gift saved your Christmas day, young fella, but ONLY after all you can do for a week. And I'm letting you off easy. 2 Nephi 25:23 puts no timetable into this matter."

If fathers ran Christmases the way Smith says in 2 Nephi 25:23 that Heavenly Father runs salvation, nobody would get anything until they've done ALL they can do. That concept is "nasty" on two fronts:

You have a twisted view of how this works, let me share with you a modern parable that was told by Stephen E. Robinson, it goes like this:

“Daddy, I need to talk to you,” the little girl said. Seeing her earnest expression, the father set his newspaper aside and looked into his daughter’s eyes.

“All my friends have bikes,” the little girl explained. “Can I get a bike? I could ride it to school and lock it with a lock. I could go to my friend’s house all by myself and you wouldn’t even have to drive me.” Her eyes sparkled with excitement at the thought.

“Well,” he said, “that is an interesting idea. But having a bike is a big responsibility, you know. And bikes cost quite a lot of money.”

The little girl smiled confidently. “I’m going to pay for it myself,” she declared. ”I’m going to save up all my money and not spend even one penny. If I save and save, don’t you think I’ll have enough for a bike someday.”

Her father sat for a few moments without answering. He knew that his little girl had no idea what a bicycle would really cost. There was no way her small allowance would be enough, even if she did extra jobs around the house to add to it.

But she was so excited, so earnest – so priceless – that his heart melted. He took her into his arms and hugged her tightly. “A goal is a good thing to have,” he said. “Why don’t you try it, and let’s see what happens.”

A few days went by, and the father found his little girl sweeping the porch. The following week he noticed her working alongside her mother in the garden, pulling weeds and planting flowers. And once or twice, as the little girl went into her bedroom, he heard the clink of coins being dropped into a glass jar.

After a while, the little girl came to her father and said, “Daddy, I’ve been working and saving up all my money for a long time. Can we get my bike now?” She shook the coins in the bottom of the jar.

The father looked at the little collection of coins, and then he looked into the pleading eyes of the little girl he loved so much. “Let’s go and see what we can find out,” he suggested.

The bicycle shop had a little bell that made a tinkling noise when they walked into the store. They hadn’t looked around very long when suddenly the little girl froze. There it was! The most beautiful bicycle she could ever have imagined! She ran to it, stroking its shiny chrome and running her fingers through the colorful streamers that flowed from its handle grips. Never could there be a more perfect bike than this one. She clapped her hands with the pure delight of it.

Then she reached for the price tag.

The next moment, the sunshine in the little girl’s eyes melted into tears. “Oh, Daddy,” she wept, “I’ll never have enough. Never.” She threw herself into his arms.

Her father cradled her head on his shoulder and gently stroked her hair, letting her cry.

When the little girl finally settled down, her father wiped her tears away and said, “How about this? How much money do you have?”

“Sixty-one cents,” she answered in a forlorn voice.

“Then I’ll tell you what,” he said. “Let’s try a different arrangement. You give me everything you’ve got – the whole sixty-one cents – and a hug and a kiss, and this bike is yours. I’ll make up the difference.”

Hope came back into the little girl’s eyes. “Really, Daddy?” she asked.

“Really, honey.”

“Oh, Daddy!” she said once again, but the words were happy ones now, and the little girl hurried to fill her part of the bargain with several hugs and kisses just to be sure.

The deal was completed, and the Most Perfect Bike Ever was purchased, and the father walked beside his little girl as she wheeled it proudly to the car. In his pockets jingled the sixty-one cents, and in his heart glowed his love for his daughter and the joy he felt in knowing how hard she had worked to reach her goal. When it came down to it, the sixty-one cents – and the hugs and kisses – were exactly enough.

But the story doesn’t end there. . . .

The truth is, there’s something we all want, and we want it more than any child ever wanted any bicycle. We want the kingdom of God. We want to go home to our Father in Heaven worthy and clean.

At some point in that spiritual voyage, we recognize the full price of admission into that kingdom, and we also realize we cannot pay it. We’ll never have enough - - never. The tremendous price of perfect performance is hopelessly beyond our means.

And so we despair.

Only then can we fully appreciate the One who comes to save. For Him, each soul is priceless. When we finally feel the pain of our own shortcomings, the Savior, Jesus Christ, steps in and lovingly says, “Let’s try a different arrangement. How much do you have? You give me exactly that much (the whole sixty-one cents) and do all you can do, and I will provide the rest for now. You give me all you’ve got, and a hug and a kiss (signifying the love that cements this covenant), and the kingdom is yours. Perfection will still be our ultimate goal, but until you can achieve it on your own, I’ll let you use mine. What do you say?”

To all who want to serve God and keep his commandments, who hunger and thirst after righteousness, we declare, this is the “good news” of the gospel. Christ is the answer. He is the bridge from here to there. He is our hope when we feel cut off and alone. He is our Savior”

(Stephen E. Robinson, “You Are Priceless - The Parable of the Bicycle”, Shadow Mountain 2004).

You keep telling me I can't afford a bike with the few coins I can earn, I keep telling you that I know that, but If I don't prove to Jesus how much I love him by trying, then my brother, my Savior my friend cannot save me, for I must show that I want what he has offered, for that is the deal he has offered us, to do what we can (earn our sixty one cents inadequate though it might be), and he promises that it'll be enough for he will make up the difference.

You need both.

Reality is.

I'm going to cut your work analogy, for it has no bearing, you are misinterpreting the scripture, trust me on this, they are my scriptures, not yours, you don't believe them, I do.

You've already conceded that the BoM lifts parts of Isaiah & plants them in the BoM wholesale.

Um, I am only telling the truth, it's not like you wormed it out of me, it'd be pretty hard to conceal since Nephi said he was well, I'll just copy in the scripture here:

2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.

You may feel this is a confession you have "Wrung" out of me, and I don't want to ruin your moment of victory, but truly, a moment is all I can spare.

.
.
.
.
.
Times up

The BoM does the same things in lifting direct King James English phrases & verses from the Gospels (as if the South American/Central American ancient Mormons scratched out 17th century thees & thous on gold plates). So those verses contain content truth. A fresh reader coming along reads truth. In one chapter of the BoM, they'll read something from the book of Isaiah, and then the next chapter something from one of the gospels.

There goes the Moment, there is nothing "from the Gospels" in the BOM. Have you ever translated anything from one language to another? I served my mission in Taiwan. Chinese is arguably one of the hardest languages for an english speaker to learn (and I thank God for the Gift of Tongues or I'd have never mastered it) I got to where I could speak it so well that people would think I was a native over the phone and look confused when two "White boys" showed up. I often used phrases lifted wholesale out of books and study guides because the grammar was correct. Joseph Grew up being taught to read and write from the bible, and it would have been more remarkable if he did not insert Thees and Thous into his interpretation of scripture than if he did. The problem here is you have already decided and now are back filling to prove yourself correct. this predisposition shows in the logic used by both Momrons and anti Momrons alike. Some Mormons have problems when they can't answer everything, some anti Mormons think that any Mormon should be able to answer any question, neither position is supportable in the long run. I could ask you questions about God that you could not answer (trust me on this, I grew up in the midwest and made a sport of frustrating preachers sons, and then the preachers themselves when they showed up to defend their religion, I know how to tie people up in knots with the Bible.) I don't do that anymore because I finally learned what my Dad meant when he said "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I'm not sure where he heard that, but it is also not very Christlike to trap people in their words of faith, and tie them up with their own statements of belief, leaving them frustrated in their inability to communicate. It is this prior experience of mine that allows me to see where many of the anti's are going to and that it is a street that dead ends.

Anyway, back to your attempt to prove the Book of Mormon is deceptive by innuendo...

Sandwiched in between can be a passage like 2 Nephi 25:23. That is what I mean by "slipping" something in.

Ah but it's not sandwiched in, and all you have to do is look at the chapter to see that.

Here, Click on this link to see the whole chapter with this scripture highlighted, what the heck, I'll copy a few scriptures over so people don't have to click:
2 Nephi 25:20-26

20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt, and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations after they had been bitten by the poisonous serpents, if they would cast their eyes unto the serpent which he did raise up before them, and also gave him power that he should smite the rock and the water should come forth; yea, behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.
21 Wherefore, for this cause hath the Lord God promised unto me that these things which I write shall be kept and preserved, and handed down unto my seed, from generation to generation, that the promise may be fulfilled unto Joseph, that his seed should never perish as long as the earth should stand.
22 Wherefore, these things shall go from generation to generation as long as the earth shall stand; and they shall go according to the will and pleasure of God; and the nations who shall possess them shall be judged of them according to the words which are written.
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.
26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

As with many scriptures posted by Anti Mormons, reading the scripture in context makes the interpretation they promote more capricious, not less.

Please, if you are going to speak about what we believe, learn what that is exactly from us first before you teach, and not from some anti site, for they will not put scriptures they say to use in context and will not be giving you they true picture, it's not their purpose to teach truth, but to oppose us.