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I don't have to guess. 2 Nephi 25:23 is clear enough. Grace kicks in ONCE you or any Mormon has done "all you can do." (Or do you still have a problem comprehending what that word "after" means?)

Apparently you don't understand elibethien english very well.

If I say: "I'll pick you up & give you a free ride AFTER you get the house totally clean," and the house isn't totally clean, then I guess that "free ride" ain't acomin', now is it?

That would depend on how much charity you possessed, and how badly I needed to get somewhere...

I'm willing to bet and indeed am grateful that Jesus is kinder than you are.

My primary point here was the order of the two: You put grace first (which is a fine Biblical perspective, but doesn't reflect 2 Nephi 25:23 at all). 2 Nephi 25:23 puts "All you can do" first; grace doesn't kick in til this is accomplished. So (a) is "all you can do"; and (b) is grace. But the way 2 Nephi 25:23 frames, it, (b)--grace--doesn't show up til (a) is fully accomplished.

And I think you are finding points of difference where there are none, the Church cross referenced with James 2, which means they teach the same principle, we use both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, so our doctrine has to be compatible with both (and the PGP, and D&C). As a member of the Church who has been certified to teach people what we believe, I am telling you you have it wrong, Grace is more important, but you still need both Grace and Works.

b) then becomes a mere footnote because it's a "catch-22" Let us hear from your lips: Is there going to be a point in your life where you'll be able to say: "I, DelphiUser, have done ALL I can do spiritually, physically, emotionally, intellectually, good neighborly, good Samaritanly, with no sins of omission?"

Absolutely! That is what repentance is all about. when we partake of the sacrament every Sunday, we recommit ourselves to the very covenants we make at baptism, and we are repenting of all our sins as we do so, Every sunday, we get to start over trying to be perfect, if all our sins followed us around like some living Jacob Morely, there would be no way to ever do Jesus' command to be perfect, now would we? Worse, we would be putting the lie to his atonement by not believing that his sacrifice for us was of any efficacy!

please tell me that you believe that when you repent your sins are swept away by the atonement of Jesus Christ, please tell me you do not carry that awful burden with you from day to day, please tell me for I cannot bear the thought of someone who believes themselves to be a Christian to hold themselves to an impossible standard with no way to achieve it. For with God, all things are possible, God can even save me, and truly, that is a miracle, and I praise God for it.

Now think of the most spiritual, moral Mormon whose ever lived. Did Smith do all he could do? <Snip>I could go on and on.

We know, we know...

I Said: You don't earn grace, that's the point of it being grace...

You Said: Agreed.

Wait a minute did we just agree on a point of doctrine? we just made the Devil mad by freezing Hell over like that without any warning and all.

You somehow think that it's works + grace = salvation, as if the greatest gift of all--salvation--can be paid for by works.

I said you guys would go here, if I tell you I will sell you something for $20 and a date with your sister, that does not mean $40 dollars will do it, you will need $20 and a date with your sister and nothing else.

Works + Grace = Salvation

Works != Salvation

Grace != Salvation

It takes both. I am not the one that is saying that, God is the one that is saying that, here: Revelations 20:12-13

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I would indeed be telling an untruth if I said there was no possibility that I am misinterpreting the Bible, but you would also be telling a untruth to say what I am saying has no support from the Bible. Thus we are looking at the same book and bringing away different interpretations, this is why there are so many "Christian" churches all using the Bible.

Imagine a son @ Christmas time. You say to him, "Hey, I got a great deal on that gift. Normally $20,000. I'm going to give you that gift in exchange for 40 hours of labor that's going to be worth about $400 to me. You are be-graced with this $10,000 gift after ALL you can do for me in a week's labor."

Now imagine the response of your son: "Hey, I thought this was a gift." And you say, "It is. But you know, we're Mormons. Faith without works is dead, you know...or are you not keeping up with your memorization of James 2?" "But dad," he says. "You told me that gifts are unearned." And you respond, "Well, grace IS unearned. But come on, are you not keeping up with 2 Nephi 25:23, either? This Unearned gift saved your Christmas day, young fella, but ONLY after all you can do for a week. And I'm letting you off easy. 2 Nephi 25:23 puts no timetable into this matter."

If fathers ran Christmases the way Smith says in 2 Nephi 25:23 that Heavenly Father runs salvation, nobody would get anything until they've done ALL they can do. That concept is "nasty" on two fronts:

You have a twisted view of how this works, let me share with you a modern parable that was told by Stephen E. Robinson, it goes like this:

“Daddy, I need to talk to you,” the little girl said. Seeing her earnest expression, the father set his newspaper aside and looked into his daughter’s eyes.

“All my friends have bikes,” the little girl explained. “Can I get a bike? I could ride it to school and lock it with a lock. I could go to my friend’s house all by myself and you wouldn’t even have to drive me.” Her eyes sparkled with excitement at the thought.

“Well,” he said, “that is an interesting idea. But having a bike is a big responsibility, you know. And bikes cost quite a lot of money.”

The little girl smiled confidently. “I’m going to pay for it myself,” she declared. ”I’m going to save up all my money and not spend even one penny. If I save and save, don’t you think I’ll have enough for a bike someday.”

Her father sat for a few moments without answering. He knew that his little girl had no idea what a bicycle would really cost. There was no way her small allowance would be enough, even if she did extra jobs around the house to add to it.

But she was so excited, so earnest – so priceless – that his heart melted. He took her into his arms and hugged her tightly. “A goal is a good thing to have,” he said. “Why don’t you try it, and let’s see what happens.”

A few days went by, and the father found his little girl sweeping the porch. The following week he noticed her working alongside her mother in the garden, pulling weeds and planting flowers. And once or twice, as the little girl went into her bedroom, he heard the clink of coins being dropped into a glass jar.

After a while, the little girl came to her father and said, “Daddy, I’ve been working and saving up all my money for a long time. Can we get my bike now?” She shook the coins in the bottom of the jar.

The father looked at the little collection of coins, and then he looked into the pleading eyes of the little girl he loved so much. “Let’s go and see what we can find out,” he suggested.

The bicycle shop had a little bell that made a tinkling noise when they walked into the store. They hadn’t looked around very long when suddenly the little girl froze. There it was! The most beautiful bicycle she could ever have imagined! She ran to it, stroking its shiny chrome and running her fingers through the colorful streamers that flowed from its handle grips. Never could there be a more perfect bike than this one. She clapped her hands with the pure delight of it.

Then she reached for the price tag.

The next moment, the sunshine in the little girl’s eyes melted into tears. “Oh, Daddy,” she wept, “I’ll never have enough. Never.” She threw herself into his arms.

Her father cradled her head on his shoulder and gently stroked her hair, letting her cry.

When the little girl finally settled down, her father wiped her tears away and said, “How about this? How much money do you have?”

“Sixty-one cents,” she answered in a forlorn voice.

“Then I’ll tell you what,” he said. “Let’s try a different arrangement. You give me everything you’ve got – the whole sixty-one cents – and a hug and a kiss, and this bike is yours. I’ll make up the difference.”

Hope came back into the little girl’s eyes. “Really, Daddy?” she asked.

“Really, honey.”

“Oh, Daddy!” she said once again, but the words were happy ones now, and the little girl hurried to fill her part of the bargain with several hugs and kisses just to be sure.

The deal was completed, and the Most Perfect Bike Ever was purchased, and the father walked beside his little girl as she wheeled it proudly to the car. In his pockets jingled the sixty-one cents, and in his heart glowed his love for his daughter and the joy he felt in knowing how hard she had worked to reach her goal. When it came down to it, the sixty-one cents – and the hugs and kisses – were exactly enough.

But the story doesn’t end there. . . .

The truth is, there’s something we all want, and we want it more than any child ever wanted any bicycle. We want the kingdom of God. We want to go home to our Father in Heaven worthy and clean.

At some point in that spiritual voyage, we recognize the full price of admission into that kingdom, and we also realize we cannot pay it. We’ll never have enough - - never. The tremendous price of perfect performance is hopelessly beyond our means.

And so we despair.

Only then can we fully appreciate the One who comes to save. For Him, each soul is priceless. When we finally feel the pain of our own shortcomings, the Savior, Jesus Christ, steps in and lovingly says, “Let’s try a different arrangement. How much do you have? You give me exactly that much (the whole sixty-one cents) and do all you can do, and I will provide the rest for now. You give me all you’ve got, and a hug and a kiss (signifying the love that cements this covenant), and the kingdom is yours. Perfection will still be our ultimate goal, but until you can achieve it on your own, I’ll let you use mine. What do you say?”

To all who want to serve God and keep his commandments, who hunger and thirst after righteousness, we declare, this is the “good news” of the gospel. Christ is the answer. He is the bridge from here to there. He is our hope when we feel cut off and alone. He is our Savior”

(Stephen E. Robinson, “You Are Priceless - The Parable of the Bicycle”, Shadow Mountain 2004).

You keep telling me I can't afford a bike with the few coins I can earn, I keep telling you that I know that, but If I don't prove to Jesus how much I love him by trying, then my brother, my Savior my friend cannot save me, for I must show that I want what he has offered, for that is the deal he has offered us, to do what we can (earn our sixty one cents inadequate though it might be), and he promises that it'll be enough for he will make up the difference.

You need both.

Reality is.

I'm going to cut your work analogy, for it has no bearing, you are misinterpreting the scripture, trust me on this, they are my scriptures, not yours, you don't believe them, I do.

You've already conceded that the BoM lifts parts of Isaiah & plants them in the BoM wholesale.

Um, I am only telling the truth, it's not like you wormed it out of me, it'd be pretty hard to conceal since Nephi said he was well, I'll just copy in the scripture here:

2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.

You may feel this is a confession you have "Wrung" out of me, and I don't want to ruin your moment of victory, but truly, a moment is all I can spare.

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Times up

The BoM does the same things in lifting direct King James English phrases & verses from the Gospels (as if the South American/Central American ancient Mormons scratched out 17th century thees & thous on gold plates). So those verses contain content truth. A fresh reader coming along reads truth. In one chapter of the BoM, they'll read something from the book of Isaiah, and then the next chapter something from one of the gospels.

There goes the Moment, there is nothing "from the Gospels" in the BOM. Have you ever translated anything from one language to another? I served my mission in Taiwan. Chinese is arguably one of the hardest languages for an english speaker to learn (and I thank God for the Gift of Tongues or I'd have never mastered it) I got to where I could speak it so well that people would think I was a native over the phone and look confused when two "White boys" showed up. I often used phrases lifted wholesale out of books and study guides because the grammar was correct. Joseph Grew up being taught to read and write from the bible, and it would have been more remarkable if he did not insert Thees and Thous into his interpretation of scripture than if he did. The problem here is you have already decided and now are back filling to prove yourself correct. this predisposition shows in the logic used by both Momrons and anti Momrons alike. Some Mormons have problems when they can't answer everything, some anti Mormons think that any Mormon should be able to answer any question, neither position is supportable in the long run. I could ask you questions about God that you could not answer (trust me on this, I grew up in the midwest and made a sport of frustrating preachers sons, and then the preachers themselves when they showed up to defend their religion, I know how to tie people up in knots with the Bible.) I don't do that anymore because I finally learned what my Dad meant when he said "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I'm not sure where he heard that, but it is also not very Christlike to trap people in their words of faith, and tie them up with their own statements of belief, leaving them frustrated in their inability to communicate. It is this prior experience of mine that allows me to see where many of the anti's are going to and that it is a street that dead ends.

Anyway, back to your attempt to prove the Book of Mormon is deceptive by innuendo...

Sandwiched in between can be a passage like 2 Nephi 25:23. That is what I mean by "slipping" something in.

Ah but it's not sandwiched in, and all you have to do is look at the chapter to see that.

Here, Click on this link to see the whole chapter with this scripture highlighted, what the heck, I'll copy a few scriptures over so people don't have to click:
2 Nephi 25:20-26

20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt, and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations after they had been bitten by the poisonous serpents, if they would cast their eyes unto the serpent which he did raise up before them, and also gave him power that he should smite the rock and the water should come forth; yea, behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.
21 Wherefore, for this cause hath the Lord God promised unto me that these things which I write shall be kept and preserved, and handed down unto my seed, from generation to generation, that the promise may be fulfilled unto Joseph, that his seed should never perish as long as the earth should stand.
22 Wherefore, these things shall go from generation to generation as long as the earth shall stand; and they shall go according to the will and pleasure of God; and the nations who shall possess them shall be judged of them according to the words which are written.
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.
26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

As with many scriptures posted by Anti Mormons, reading the scripture in context makes the interpretation they promote more capricious, not less.

Please, if you are going to speak about what we believe, learn what that is exactly from us first before you teach, and not from some anti site, for they will not put scriptures they say to use in context and will not be giving you they true picture, it's not their purpose to teach truth, but to oppose us.

I never did respond to your post #260. (I had to confirm some comparisons of the Book of Mormon vs. Isaiah & the gospels).

Anyway, in a previous post, I said: Sandwiched in between can be a passage like 2 Nephi 25:23. That is what I mean by "slipping" something in.

Your response: Ah but it's not sandwiched in, and all you have to do is look at the chapter to see that.

What I thought was quite funny was that your own LDS friend, Sevenback, then chipped in with post #325 to confirm half of what I saying. Yes, indeed, Delf, "all you have to do is look at the chapter to see that."

Sevenbak said:

How many people just gloss over Isaiah? The Book of Mormon quotes Isaiah, and then explains it, in pure and simple language.

And of course, Sevenbak put in bold faced exactly where among the Nephite sources we find the words of Isaiah. Right where I said they were...same chapter as 2 Nephi 25:23...2 Nephi 25:4-8 (Sevenback also highlighted 3 Nephite 23:1-2).

Of course, Sevenbak could have gone on to mention (and didn't) that 2 Nephi 24:12-32 is an exact copy job of Isaiah 14:12-32.

Well, that's mighty interesting. Wanna explain why v. 12 of 2 Nephi 24 EXACTLY matches v. 12 of 2 Nephi 24? Wanna explain why v. 13 matches v. 13? (and on down the line) But you still don't get it, do you?

As I know you know, the Bible was not originally written as it presents itself to us. (It was written as straight text and only divided for us so we could reference it...Thruout history, various methods were used to divvy it up chapter verse...with the method now used based upon Stephen Langton's work...I guess LDS would call Langton "Langton the apostate"...from the University of Paris between 1205 and 1227).

Well, the Jews FIRST used the Langton system for the OT divvying up of verses in 1330 in a manuscript followed by a 1516 printed edition. (Oh & BTW, Hebrew straight text was much harder to divide than Greek text because of much fewer "natural" breaks in the thought structure). Now you wanna tell us all what year again 2 Nephi was etched in gold plates? (It wasn't after 1205 AD, was it?)

Please explain how it was for the Nephite author to know exactly what verse Langton would come to designate as Isaiah 14:12, 14:13, on through 14:32? And why you're at it, please explain how it is he would use Elizabethen English in citing parts of Isaiah. (You would think that if he was EXACTLY quoting Isaiah, that his "translation" would be a wee bit different than what the 17th century KJV translators would come up with...so that even if the content matched thought for thought, the words wouldn't be mimeographed.) This is 100% proof that Joe had a KJV Bible tucked away in his hat...didn't need a "seer stone" for that dictation portion!!!

Here, Click on this link to see the whole chapter with this scripture highlighted, what the heck, I'll copy a few scriptures over so people don't have to click...There goes the Moment, there is nothing "from the Gospels" in the BOM. Have you ever translated anything from one language to another?

Well, thank you for supplying 2 Nephi 25, but what I originally meant as "sandwiched" was not simply what was in one mere chapter. I meant what was in the latter part of 2 Nephi. (And in fact, since folks are use to reading 2 Cor after 1 Cor...same w/Peter, Thess., Timothy...some readers will temporarily bypass half of the BoM to get to 3 Nephi & then 4 Nephi...and so even those books come into play)

So let me reiterate my original premise: Joseph copied portions of Isaiah into the Book of Mormon text (2 Nephi 24 and early portions of chptr 25). He then inserted a works-oriented verse--2 Nephi 25:23--and then smatterings of the gospels appeared in places like 2 Nephi 31. Result? A newby reader to the BoM who just happened upon those 8 chapters would say, "Boy this sure rings true!!!"

Allow me to break this down:

Step One: A reader comes along & reads it..."Boy, this is the Word of God...leaves a burning in my bosom." (and of course, reading 2 Nephi 24 is just like reading Isaiah 14. So then that becomes a "set up.")

Step Two: The reader continues on to where 2 Nephi 25:4-8 also references Isaiah. Then to 2 Nephi 25:12 where "wars and rumors of wars" (oh, yeah, that's no borrowed phrase from Matthew 24) & then to 2 Nephi 25:13, which is a short summary of the gospels. The reader continues on to 2 Nephi 25:23: "You are saved by grace AFTER ALL YOU can DO."

Step Three: Despite your assurances that "there is nothing in the gospels from the BoM," what do we find?

In 2 Nephi 31:8, we find a phrased referenced to Matt. 3:16.

In 2 Nephi 31:9,18, we find a phrased referenced to Matt. 7:13-14.

In 2 Nephi 31:21, we find a phrased referenced to both Acts 4:12 and John 7:16.

Now for those orderly readers who think that 3 follows 2 instead of Jacob following 2--those who jump on over to 3 Nephi, what do we find just in the first 11 chapters?

In 3 Nephi 9:17, we find a phrased referenced to John 1:12.

In 3 Nephi 11:11, we find a phrased reference to John 8:12. And in v. 14, a reference to John 20:27.

All kinds of references of the gospels DO make their way into the BoM. Of course, allow me to pre-empt what you'll counter with: "Shock! Surprise! The Scriptures are consistent! Jesus happened to say what he said in the Americas as he did in the Middle East!"

But this goes back to the need for you to act like a detective as you compare 2 Nephi 24 to Isaiah 14 (and other plagarisms from Isaiah), elsewise, if you are as you say, a "certified teacher"...then you'll never recognize plagiarism by any of the submissions of your students. You'll be a deceived teacher.

Just as the assignment of verses to Isaiah in the 13th century dooms 2 Nephi 24 as being of previous origin, think about Matthew, Mark and Luke for a moment. Do they match? In large part, yes. But the fact that MANY distinctions exist actually adds to the authentic reliability. Some word structures are changed. Some contexts are changed. Some order of phrasing is changed. Much more unity than distinctiveness is there, unifying the three; but the distinctiveness of the phrasing & wording tells us one thing: It wasn't just one major "copy" job. Luke wasn't "plagiarising" Matthew.

Now look at the borrowed phrases from the gospels in the BoM. Oh sure, the order & context is jumbled. But what stands out to me as a plagiarism hunter is the exact same King James rendering.

You said, "Apparently you don't understand Elizabethen English very well," well I understand this: Early 19th century folks didn't speak KJ English in everyday language. Key portions were partially archaic then just as it's 1/2 to 3/4 archaic now.

The BoM should have either been a tightly worded concise history with God's actions and words mixed in, reflecting its supposed purpose (tight for gold etching purposes), or if it was going to "free flow" as it wound up being (and quite repetitively I might add), then we would expect more modern words and phrases. If God was going to "customize" it for 19th and 20th and 21st century readers, He wouldn't address us in British colloquialisms under King James' rulership.