Posted on 10/29/2007 9:10:41 PM PDT by Salvation
Who did my post #15 misrepresent? You?
That's apparently how the artist viewed him: weak, frail, effeminate, and fecklessly dead on the cross, where they wish to keep him.
I'm not quite sure what question you're looking for an answer to.
It is very strange, since some Protestants would use 1 Cor 9:27 as their own "proof text" that OSAS is false. That is, some don't believe in eternal security.
Yes, some of us believe that OSAS is false.
But still, they will say, "I'm saved NOW".
Is it ours to judge the faith of others? Judging "fruits" or their "works" is not what I'm talking about. Those who tell you they're "saved NOW" are expressing their belief, no more & no less.
Or, "I don't need good works to be saved." To such people I always ask, "Then how are you 'saved now', if not by your good works done through Christ?
Good works are a product of salvation, not the cause of salvation. Salvation is 100% an act of mercy, because none of us deserve it & nothing we can do will cause us to be worthy of it.
Simply continuing to believe Jesus is Lord?
Not just "Lord", but our Lord. Do be believe we belong to Him or do we belong to the world?
That's how you are 'saved now'? Then how are you different than a demon? (cf. James 2:19)"
Demons believe Jesus is Lord, but they also believe their lord (Satan) is mightier.
***Sola gratia! Grace alone — but a grace we have to co-operate with. The bottom line: all salvation comes from the grace of Christ’s Sacrifice and only from the grace of His Sacrifice.***
Maybe it would be better to rephrase the last sentence:
The bottom line: all salvation comes from the grace of Christ's Sacrifice and only from the grace of His Sacrifice, and when we cooperate with said Sacrifce and Grace.
In this way, one can clearly see that it is by grace alone we are saved. The means by which this Grace saves us is either:
1. Through free will cooperation or...
2. Through predestination that does not involve free will.
Personally, I prefer the former. I see no hope or love in the latter position.
The general position of protestants on the subject.
I must admit I never heard that response before. I'm not sure it's true though.
James 2:19 tells us the demons (devils) "tremble" because of their "belief" in God. To me, it appears as though they know full well Jesus (God) is THEIR Lord too, or else, why would they "tremble"?
As for the rest of your post, I believe I addressed those points above.
The general position of protestants on the subject.
I don't think so, since in post #15 I said "some Protestants", not all.
They tremble for the same reason many Christians are fearful of Satan's power. You think they are spared from having any doubts from time to time?
***The bottom line: all salvation comes from the grace of Christ’s Sacrifice....***
I accept your clarification. And, I will have more to say, but a salvation that comes from grace is still NOT a salvation by grace, but is at best a salvation by the USE of grace.
The question remains to be answered: What must I do to be saved?
Some men say you can be saved if you will....
Other men say that it is the Lord alone who saves. When his grace was shed, men were saved.
***The means by which this Grace saves us is either:
1. Through free will cooperation or...
2. Through predestination that does not involve free will.
Personally, I prefer the former. I see no hope or love in the latter position.***
The grace in #1 doesn’t save. The use of the grace saves. Provision for salvation may come from God, but the power to make it real comes from men.
In #2, there is a false dichotomy between predestination and volition.
Therefore, I neither believe #1 or #2.
Huh??
Amen.
The use of the grace saves. Provision for salvation may come from God, but the power to make it real comes from men.
Amen again!
Remind me again, what do we disagree about? hehe
Dead on the cross, rather than resurrected, and alive.
The crucifix tells a lie.
So, Christ didn't die on a Cross?
He didn’t remain on the cross, and he wasn’t an effeminate wimp. The empty cross tells the real story.
You act like Catholics deny the Resurrection.
This statement make no sense unless one is an atheist.
Who is stating such a claim?
I do understand, but thank you for your concern.
It is true. Faith in Jesus Christ is the only condition God requires for salvation, but faith is not only a profession about Christ, but an activity. It comes from the heart of one who is devoted to following Christ.
Faith means firmly believing and trusting in the crucified and risen Christ as our personal Lord and Savior (Ro 1:17) and believing with all our hearts (Ro :17 Eph 6:6 Heb 10:22). It is about yielding up our wills in full obedience, daily.
Faith also involves repentance (ie: true sorrow for our sins) Acts 17:30 2 Co 7:10. Saving faith is always a repentant faith.
Faith also includes obedience: Jn 3:3-6 14: 15, 21-24 Heb 3:8-9 (an obedience that comes from faith Ro 1:5)
Faith also includes a heartfelt devotion to Christ. This faith expresses itself in love, trust, thankfulness, and loyalty. Faith is a personal activity of sacrifice and self giving toward Christ (Mt 22:37 Jn 21: 15-17 Acts 8: 37 Ro 6: 17 Gal 2:20 Eph 6:6 1 Pe 1:8)
Faith is not a single act. It is both a single moment and a continuing faith that must grow!
Unfortunately I do not have time to do an exhaustive search of Scripture for you today. I have a meeting with a client shortly. The Scriptures are clear that faith must be followed by action in order to be a saving faith. Off the top of my head Mt 21:23, 10: 37-39 18: 3 and 32. John 8:31-32 8: 51 14:21 and 15: 1-8. Ro 2:13 and finally Ro 23:31 (Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law).
Read 1 John. Nowhere does John state that a single past experience is an assurance or guarantee of salvation. To assume we posses eternal life based solely on one experience or on a faith that is no longer active is a grave error.
In short, yes Faith IS something you DO! Everyday!
Please don't worry about my salvation, but those who see a one time acceptance of Christ as a “get out of hell free card” who continue to sin and live in the flesh (the old self). Pray for them.
Til we meet again. God Bless you and keep you.
"Catholics" is a broad term, covering thousands of individual sects and fifedoms. Some actually do deny not just the ressurection, but also the birth, but I make no such inferance in general.
The meaning of the crucifix is the pagan assertion that Christ was only another man who is now dead.
He didn’t remain on the cross, and he wasn’t an effeminate wimp.
Who is stating such a claim?
The artist, through his symbolic representations.
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