Grace, Faith, and Works

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[Iscool]

and faith without works is not enough. We are saved by grace alone -- a grace that we accept neither "by faith alone" nor "by works alone," but "by faith that works in charity" (Galatians 5:6).

Nice try but no cigar...

You can't accept Grace by works with or without Faith...Grace is a gift...A free Gift...You can't work for it...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But yet you are boasting that it takes works to get the Grace...

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love

Do you have to work to love Jesus Christ???

[FourtySeven]

Strawman!

To say what I said is a strawman is to say what I said is a false construction, easily defeated. So, I guess I should ask you, do you believe works play a role in salvation?

If not, then what I said is not a strawman. If you do not believe that works have a role in salvation, then what I said is not a strawman. And the passage from James holds.

Faith does not save us, because it also is a gift from God. It is when we use that gift of faith, and believe, that we are saved.

I would agree with that, but then add "how do you 'use' that gift of faith"? If you aren't demonstrating good fruit, you will be cast off, cut off, as a dead branch, right?

The works of which James speaks come naturally, out of love, rather than fear of punishment.

I think we agree more than you realize. You just don't want to admit to yourself that works are a vital component to salvation. Note, the OP clearly states (and I agree) that the Catholic position is NOT that our OWN works "save us", rather that the works done, through the POWER of the saving GRACE of Jesus (God) save us.

I'm not sure why you would have a problem with that last statement.

[Campion]

The implication is that you deserve an inheritance since you are a member of the family

Salvation is divine sonship.

Sons deserve their inheritance unless they throw it away and are disinherited.

But what are you again telling people what they ought to believe, while simultaneously claiming they can find out themselves from the Bible?

[Iscool]

St. Paul: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1 Cor 9:27

Do you see anything in that verse about Paul losing his salvation??? You surely don't...

You ever consider looking at the context of that verse within the chapter???

1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Simple enough, eh???

1Co 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

If you don't get it from these scriptures, ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand it...

[editor-surveyor]

"So, I guess I should ask you, do you believe works play a role in salvation?"

Works are the outward evidence of our salvation, done through the indwelling of Christ; they do not save us, his blood does that, but they do show that we are saved. Our salvation is not of works ("lest any man should boast"), but the works are of our salvation.

[Iscool]

That's how you are 'saved now'? Then how are you different than a demon? (cf. James 2:19)"

I never get a response.

I'm sure you always get a response but maybe you chose not to believe it...Scores of scripture have been posted on these thread to prove, once saved,always saved...

And here's another one...1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

[Abigail Adams]

[[ Many non-Catholics, in their confused zeal for Jesus, are constantly asking Catholics if we are “born again,” admonishing us that unless we are “born again” we cannot be saved. But you see, Catholics, like St. John the Evangelist in the third chapter of his Gospel, relate the phrase “born again” to the results of Baptism. Baptism is how we enter into the New Covenant, in the same way the Hebrews and Israelites entered the Old Covenant through circumcision (which, you’ll note, was done to infants). ]]

And therein lies the difference. Protestants see baptism as something one does as an outward expression of what has happened in their heart—ie, they have become a new person (”born again”)—rather than the means of transformation.

[[ When many Protestants use the phrase “born again,” they seem to be referring to an “emotional experience.” They often expect instant transformation (which can certainly happen), speaking in tongues, miracles, etc. as some sort of “proof” of having been “born again.” ]]

Protestants are not referring to an “emotional experience,” but rather the point at which they became a new person in Christ.

“Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.”
—Colossians 3:9-10

“You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.”
—Ephesians 4:22-24

There are different word or phrases that people might use to express this transformation experience:

I asked Jesus into my heart.

I gave my life to Jesus.

I was born again.

God changed my life.

I decided to put my trust in Jesus.

I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior.

I got saved.

God made me a new person.

I turned my life over to God.

etc.

It is sometimes hard to explain the transformation that happens in one’s heart and life. But it comes down to having a personal relationship with Jesus, and it is life-changing.

[Iscool]

Salvation is divine sonship.

Yes it is...For Sons...If you are a branch of the 'root'...

Sons deserve their inheritance unless they throw it away and are disinherited.

But in the case of God, he has not, nor will not disinherit his Sons...

But were are not talking about the 'natural' Sons of God...We are talking about the 'adopted' Sons of God...And first, you have to become a Son of God...And you won't become a Son of God if you try to work for it...

Otherwise, a dispensation of the Gospel will be committed to you...

But what are you again telling people what they ought to believe, while simultaneously claiming they can find out themselves from the Bible?

Millions upon millions HAVE found out themselves from the Bible...But like your crew, many rely on what their 'church' tells them to believe...

[Iscool]

What’s with the wimpy looking picture of Jesus...Skinny, with feminine looking reddish hair??? Is that how you guys view Jesus???

[Convert from ECUSA]

"What’s with the wimpy looking picture of Jesus...Skinny, with feminine looking reddish hair??? Is that how you guys view Jesus???"

Good night, nurse, no!!!!!! That is some artist's view, but it is not the view of the majority of Catholics. See the Jesus portrayed in "The Passion of the Christ" for a more accurate view.

[Iscool]

Glad to hear that...:)

[FourtySeven]

You ever consider looking at the context of that verse within the chapter???

[Lord_Calvinus]

***Sola gratia! Grace alone — but a grace we have to co-operate with.

The bottom line: all salvation comes from the grace of Christ’s Sacrifice and only from the grace of His Sacrifice.***

Do Catholics see the glaring contradiciton in these statements. If salvation truly came solely from the sacrifice, then based soley on the sacrifice men would be saved. This is the Calvinist view of Sola Gratia.

The Catholic view is different: grace plus works based cooperation.

Answer this question: What must I do to be saved?

[Lord_Calvinus]

***What’s with the wimpy looking picture of Jesus...Skinny, with feminine looking reddish hair??? Is that how you guys view Jesus???***

How is that view different than the “gal-pal” Jesus present by your typical “Protestant?”

[GoLightly]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

What "work" did Abraham actually perform? Actual action, "a work" was imputed to him, tho his hand was stayed. If Abraham's hand had not been stayed, what would be the difference between our Father & Molach, who people believed demanded the sacrifice of children?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Beyond believing in God, faith is believing God. There is an implied trust in God in the kind of faith most "Protestants" are talking about.

shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Who was James talking about "showing" his faith to, God?

Some Protestants seem to believe that all one has to do is believe the train exists and all will be well.

Some may believe this, but it is certainly not how I understand Sola Fide, "faith".

But what Catholics actually believe is that the train -- Grace -- is the only way to Heaven, that it is the only means by which we are saved, that we can't take another route and can do nothing about getting to Heaven without that train. But we also teach that we have to believe in the train's existence and board it through repentance and obedience to what Christ teaches.

Using the same analogy, my church would tell you God puts us on that train. We don't board it on our own & in truth, many of us do everything in our power to stay off of that train, because we love sin instead of God. "Works" (repentance and obedience) will help keep us from jumping off of it to our destruction and they are a byproduct of God putting us on His train.

What would cause y'all to board the "Grace" train, rather than the one heading to Hell? You just that good, smart or deserving in some way? You go through the motions, "do works" until you've become good, smart or deserving enough to board?

[11th Commandment]

PING

[GoLightly]

But what are you again telling people what they ought to believe, while simultaneously claiming they can find out themselves from the Bible?

There's a need for the Holy Spirit, not "finding out for ourselves from the Bible".

[FourtySeven]

Works...do not save us...

So my post #15 was not a strawman.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Do Catholics see the glaring contradiciton in these statements. If salvation truly came solely from the sacrifice, then based soley on the sacrifice men would be saved. This is the Calvinist view of Sola Gratia.

AMEN.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast." -- Ephesians 2:8-9

The Catholic view is different: grace plus works based cooperation.

Which God's word tells us is in error...

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:5-7

[editor-surveyor]

"So my post #15 was not a strawman."

It was a strawman because it conveniently misrepresented the positions of others for the purpose of establishing advantage in debate. That opinion was completely separate from the rest of my reply, which was intended to address the topic of the thread.