Posted on 10/28/2007 5:11:19 PM PDT by pinochet
I am a Catholic who is trying to understand Protestant history and teachings, in order to better understand the history of Christianity. There is one issue that I do not understand.
According to Protestant teachings, if a person becomes saved, are his future sins forgiven? Can a person lose his salvation? If not, can assurance of salvation become a license to sin?
If Ted Haggard had gone to be with the Lord early last year, while in the process of getting a "massage" from his male "friend", would he have gone straight to heaven?
First let me say I don’t buy your premise here (basically your first two sentences). Not all protestants believe the two statements you make. I don’t and nobody I knows believes this. you may have been told through other Catholics that “this is what all protestants believe” but it is not true.
The fact is I do not believe that when you are saved, you won’t feel like sinning anymore. Do you at every second of the day? Of course not. I know plenty of Catholics and protestants who continue to sin habitual sins they like to do, even though they believe in Jesus Christ and believe He will save them.
It isn’t that you won’t feel like sinning anymore (and I think this is where Catholics get off the track about how “easy” it is to be protestants), but what it does do, when you reflect on exactly just what Christ had to go through for you, personally, and He didn’t have to but did anyway, that you realize the seriousness of your sins, and that you develop an attitude of NOT WANTING to sin, to try to live a more God-pleasing life. The process of doing so is the growth process of the Christian in this life, namely, sanctification.
The reality is that I do not know any person who can just one day say, “I will never sin for the rest of my days”, and achieve it. You’d have to go into a coma, or die the instant you said that. Your thoughts, your words, your deeds, because of your ever-present sin nature that you must constantly attempt to control, given your habitual sins engrained in your over the years you’ve been alive, doesn’t magically disappear because you say those words. But spiritual growth can occur, and the maturing Christian can, by God’s grace, can help you sin less. People can take steps to for example, stop sinning sexually. People can stop shoplifting. People can stop being a drunk. People can stop abusing other people. People can stop gambling. People can stop swearing. People can stop lying. People can learn to be satisfied with what they currently have. People can stop thinking bad thoughts about others. People can learn to hold their tongues.
The mature Christian, protestant or Christian, realizes he cannot get through one day without needing God’s forgiveness. Some days he needs it more than others. It is comforting to me to know I will have it when I ask for it, and thank Him for helping me make it through the day.
For the protestants I know, it isn’t about not feeling like sinning anymore, it is about based on what Christ had to go through for us to save us, not wanting to sin anymore because you want to live a more God-pleasing life. Because in this life the sin nature is still with us, we have to fight against ourselves with the Spirit of God helping us, we know temptations will still be there for us to sin, and that we can continue to sin if we do not control ourselves. Nobody I know is kidding themselves about our ability to sin or that certain temptations will still appeal to us.
There are NO Protestant Popes!
Define, please.
No such animal. :-)
“For ALL have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God.”
Romans 3:23
Then that person was never truly saved in the first place. Like he said, once saved, ALWAYS saved (unless you commit the unpardonable sin-denying the Holy Spirit).
Antinomianism is defined as the doctrine or belief that the Gospel frees Christians from required obedience to any law, whether scriptural, civil, or moral, and that salvation is attained solely through faith and the gift of divine grace. It is the belief that moral laws are relative in meaning and application as opposed to fixed or universal.
I never said that, or implied it!
What if you, as a Catholic, were getting a "massage" from your wife (I mean the same thing you meant with the quotes and all) with no intent to complete the conjugal act, and went to meet the Lord? (Not a bad way to go, in my opinion, but just asking, in light of Catholic teaching).
Leastwise that's what early antinomian heretics were described as doing.
All the rest of us call it "tempting God" which is forbidden.
A good number of sites on the net describe it fairly well. In the present time wellknown antinomianists may be found in churches who post known homosexuals as bishops, priests or ministers. After all, officers of the church(es) are supposed to be soberminded and of good character, not given to sexual misconduct or other mischief.
“What about people that haven’t been saved, but do not feel like sinning?”
If Satan ultimately held sway, it wouldn’t matter to him if people were utterly immoral or entirely moral and ethical in their beings. They would be his chattle and not God’s children! I suspect Satan would have people morally upright and co-operative...like ethical Buddhists for example as immoral behavior would create division in his kingdom and Satan certainly doesn’t tolerate division in his kingdom! Thus many “moral” folks don’t feel like sinning and are actually quite compassionate and ethical!
We know though that God is in control despite Satan’s attempts to the contrary so thus Satan tries to sew division in God’s kingdom while maintaining strict control over his own sphere of influence. If you are the best moral man on the planet but don’t know Christ, Satan will probably leave you alone unless of course the Holy Spirit has begun wooing you into the Kingdom of God. Then the Satanic barrage may start to the point of utter possesion (or attempted unless God inteferes to allow one a choice between life or Hell)!
see, this is the problem in my opinion with the RCC. The legalism ovverides the grace of God. Another way of saying it is that you are trying to make the Gospel the Law, which it is not. The Gospel is the Gospel, and the Law is the Law. The Law convicts, it never saves. the Law shows you how hopeless your condition is and there is nothing you can do to correct it by yourself. Once the person understands this, naturally he is brought to a point where he says “What can I do to be saved?” This is when the Gospel is given to that person, who is face to face with the reality of their eternal punishment. Hopefully they receive the Gospel message. The Law no longer condemns them, but serves to remind them of where they were, and to also help them continue to live a better life. But as long as they believe the Gospel message (and God says He will give them the strength to continue believing (No one takes them from my hand) ) they can have confidence in the promises God has made to them ot save them because of what Christ has done for them. The law is still how Christ wants us to live, and the Christian who begins his walk with Christ will start to change things in his life to live a more Christ-like life. The maturing Christian will live and want to live a more Christ-like life. God will help him to because God also promises that He will cause him to bear good fruit, and God will prune out the things in our lives that are not good. It may not be pleasant always to go through these processes, as there may be changes in our lives that won’t occur if we do not go through some kind of pain or trouble, but we know also from God that He makes all things good for those who love Him, that He disciplines His sons and daughters not for punishment, but so that we may bear more fruit.
“Jesus said to her, “I am the Resurrection and the Life; he who believes in Me shall live, even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die.” John 11:25
Khomiakov pointed out that protestantism is not the negation of papism, but its universalization. Instead of one infallible man in Rome, it created a host of infallible men in London, Berlin, . . .
St. Justin Popovich expressed much the same thought, describing protestantism as the vulgarization of papism.
I hope you are “aghast at the suggestion” because I didn’t say you did ~ which is good.
>>>The Bible is quite clear that our own works do not help merit salvation<<<
Does making a deliberate effort to avoid sinning, be described as “works”?
It's not that Protestants think of themselves as "popes", rather, they believe in the concept of the "priesthood of all believers", which Catholics believe in too when they ask the question "Who is qualified to baptise" (for example).
All Christians are enjoined to pray together and discuss the meaning of the Scriptures together. It's not like we are all a bunch of imams out there workout out our own individualized interpretation of the Scriptures and their application to real life.
Or Pope Alexander VI.
Oh, wait, that was a long time ago.
OK, then, Cardinal Cody.
If we regret and try to repent and to attempt to avoid sin, then that is reasonable. We have a sin nature and are weak.
If you have sin parades, do not repent of your sin and go on with the sin like it is normal, I think you may have something to deal with on judgment day.
It is possible to accept Christ in the past, corrupt yourself with temptation and to become evil.
Does the non repentant evil person get the benefit of a previous salvation they didn’t take advantage of or honor?
I can’t see how they could.
I certainly enjoyed your lack of “eloquence”, may God continue to bless your straight honest testimony....(stay away from the telegenic black suits or at least don’t worry if your tie isn’t straight all the time...)!
Your assumption that the human will and the divine Logos merges is fundamentally and fatally flawed. Scripture does not teach that this is what occurs.
At baptism you receive the Holy Spirit. It does not ‘merge’ into your natural sin nature already present. Instead you have two natures in you, the fleshly nature you have as a sinful human being, and the Holy Spirit living within you. They don’t merge. In fact if you read Paul’s dialogue about his own internal struggles, where he painfully recounts how he, a true Apostle of Jesus Christ Himself, after having miraculous powers and abilities to heal nad do other miracles, having personally brought the saving Gospel to the gentiles, still does things he does not wish to do. Paul pleaded with Christ to take away his desires (the thorn in his flesh) and Christ would not, saying “My grace is sufficient for you.”
they don’t blend. You are fighting yourself every day from sinning. Having to hold your tongue in check is one example. Not wanting to ram your car into someone who almost caused you to have an accident is another. You are fighting against your own sin nature every day, from the moment you get up to the moment you go to sleep. Now, does everyone have the same issues, or the same degree of problems with their own natures? Does everyone have the same number of personal flaws and foibles and the same ‘hot buttons’ that bug them? Certainly not. And are some Christians more mature in their walk with God and have much better control over themselves than others. Certainly.
“Your assumption that the human will and the divine Logos merges is fundamentally and fatally flawed.”
It was not my assumption. I was responding to it. That why it was in those cute little “”
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