Posted on 10/28/2007 5:11:19 PM PDT by pinochet
I am a Catholic who is trying to understand Protestant history and teachings, in order to better understand the history of Christianity. There is one issue that I do not understand.
According to Protestant teachings, if a person becomes saved, are his future sins forgiven? Can a person lose his salvation? If not, can assurance of salvation become a license to sin?
If Ted Haggard had gone to be with the Lord early last year, while in the process of getting a "massage" from his male "friend", would he have gone straight to heaven?
Elsie responded:
28. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
So if I believe one day of my life, I'm saved for eternity??? Consult Luke 8:13, please.
"They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away".
Clearly, Jesus says we must believe NOW, not in the past. He says "believeth", not "believed 10 years ago, but not today". In the parable of the sower, Jesus tells us that SOME people receive the word with joy, but their faith falls away during difficult times. Isn't that the truth? That is reality, not the invention of "one saved, always saved".
Regards
[[The Pharisees as a group were not “unsaved”, as Scriptures tells us that “some” believed, even before Christ’s crucifixion.]]
[[I’m sure that those people Christ speaks about in Matthew 7 thought the same thing you are saying... “I accepted Jesus as my savior, I did great miracles in His name, cast out demons, ate with Him, etc...” And what happened?]]
The ones Jesus was addressing were not saved- they knew it in their hearts, and Jesus knew it and exposed it quite blatantly- they proudly relied on works as their salvation and made great show of their works- their hearts were hardened against Christ as being the only way to salvation
When Christ fulfilled the law, He delivered us from it- The law has been COMPLETELY fullfilled by Christ- We are no longer bound to the law- but the Pharisees could NOT accept this because it meant that WE are NO LONGER responsible for our salvation and that we can NO longer claim ANY right to salvation NOR can we make a show of our salvation proudly as though we were responsible for our salvation as the Pharisees had proudly displayed their “righteousness” in pompous conceit.
[[As the Bible tells us, good fruits is a sign of proper faith in God, a faith that men and women displayed even before Christ became incarnate.]]
You’re missing hte point- Good fruits is NOT the basis of our salvation- it does not- can not save us.
[[Christ then goes on to tell us HOW our righteousness will exceed the Pharisees in this section. Our faith working in love, simple as that.]]
Noone is saying that it won’t because OBVIOUSLY our righteousness is GOD Inspired and no longer works inspired as the pharisees works had been. However, again, our righteousness is not our salvation- Christ is- period!
[[It leads to presumption, that God now owes you because of one moment in time...]]
i NEVER claimed God owes us anything- it was His good pleasure to eternally save us through Christ!
Certainly.
But you then ended up dying suddenly, today, without fresh repentance for any sins you may have committed over the past month. Will you go to heaven?
Yes. This assumes, of course, that the individual was truly saved. Only God can know that for sure.
Should you be sinless at the time of your death to go to heaven?
Yes, and we are because of what Jesus did for us.
Specifically, what's cultic about it? Are you saying Jesus only died for the sins of the people living at the time He was crucified? Can you show me from the bible where it says Jesus only died to pay for our sins up to a certain point in time?
[[”They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away”.]]
Jo Kus- you are confusing two different situations here and applying it to saved folks where it is not warrented! Those who ‘beleived’ had a head knoweldge ONLY- they never accepted Christ as Savior- Many people beleive there is a God, and even beleive Christ was His Son, yet they NEVER get to the point of accepting Christ as Savior- they have a head knowledge ONLY.
“Luk 8:13 - They on the rock are they, which when they hear,.... The seed that fell upon the rock, or stony ground, signify such sort of hearers,
who receive the word with joy. The Ethiopic version reads, “with joy of heart”. But, this sort of hearers receive not the word into their hearts, or with their hearts believe it, and from their hearts obey it, only into their heads; and have only, an historical faith of it; nor with hearty, spiritual, solid joy, or joy in the Holy Ghost: for their hearts remain like a rock, unbroken by the word; but with a flash of natural affection, which quickly goes off.
And these have no root; neither “in themselves”, as the other evangelists say, they have no true grace in them; nor have they any root in Christ, nor in the love of God:
which for a while believe: their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus; which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, “in the time of hearing they have faith”; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, “they believe for a small time”; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped:
and in the time of temptation fall away: “or go back”, as the Vulgate Latin version, they draw back unto perdition; or “forsake that”, as the Arabic version reads, the word, they have heard, and received, their faith in it, and profession of it: “and soon become apostates”, as the Persic version renders it. By “the time of temptation”, is not meant any particular and sore temptation of Satan, but a time of affliction and persecution, as appears from the other evangelists; which is a trying time to professors of religion, and when those who have not the root of the matter in them, fall away.” Gill
[[God’s Word also tells us that names can be blotted out of the book of Life.]]
The book of life is NOT the Lamb’s Book of Life- big difference here.
[[That’s hyperbole. Paul cannot believe that a person would fall away to the point of going to their former life and then repenting again. However, God has told us that He would forgive seven times seventy times, so IF a man fell away, became atheist, and then later in life, returned and repented, what proof do you have that God would not forgive this man?]]
Who’s fitting what again? So when Paul states that a person who falls away can no longer be resored, it’s Hyperbole, but when Christ talks about the law being done away, and our salvation being secured and inscribed forever on God’s palms, it’s not literal either?
[[Willful sin that is greivous is called “mortal” sin, or as John says, deadly. It ruins our relationship with God. But as I said before, a repentant person can again regain that relationship with God. That’s the Good News of the Gospel - REPENT!]]
Here again, your taking two seperate issue and making it mean something it doesn’t- Nowhere is it stated that he loses salvation- he does however lose fellowship with God, just as a son loses fellowship with his father if he grieves him- The son is still a son, and fellowship can be restored- the son doesn’t lose sonship- the ONLY mortal sin is rejecting Salvation and grieving hte Spirit by assigning the miracles of Christ to Satan.
[[Why do you think Paul said “Work out your salvation in fear and trembling”? We are responsible for our actions.]]
Yes, we are responsible for our actions- we are to now live in accordance to our salvation- we are not to ATTAIN our salvation but to work it out- to live it with fear and trembling. The very next verse tells us that it is God who works in us to do His good pleasure- Paul is NOT insinuating here that we are respopnsible for our own salvation, He is telling us that ARE responsible for for working out that which has been secured in us already- to live it- which is a reasonable request of anyone who now has new life. Nowhere does Paul say we can lose our salvation in this verse or even in the following verses that quite plainly make it clear that as responsible Christians, we are to work out that which was secured in us.
I sincerely doubt that the Pharisees thought they were unsaved, brother. Jesus was attacking just this attitude of being proud of their salvation won. Clearly, the Pharisees thought they were saved by their external following of the works of the law. Jesus said the outer works are meaningless if the inner heart is not properly disposed - thoughts of mercy, forgiveness, and love.
You’re missing hte point- Good fruits is NOT the basis of our salvation- it does not- can not save us
Without works of love, you don't have faith that saves. Both James and Paul tell us this. Thus, you cannot be saved without works of love. For example:
"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire". Luke 3:8-9
Merely being a "Christian" is not enough.
However, again, our righteousness is not our salvation- Christ is- period!
What does that mean?
Regards
Here you go again, trying to twist Scriptures to fit your theology. Based on WHAT evidence do you come up with that idea about "head knowledge"? Here is what you are doing. You have this idea of "Sola fide" and "OSAS". ANY Scriptures that does not perfectly comply with that, you twist God's Word around to deny that God's Word does not agree with your pre-defined theology.
Look at the Scripture more carefully. Those people who received God's Word, the "rocky ground", accepted the Word JOYFULLY. You yourself admit "with joy of heart"! That is not "head knowledge". Nowhere does it say anything about "head knowledge" or "half-heartedly", or any such nonsense. They followed the Word with their whole self - UNTIL the time of tribulations came, and they gave up. Clearly, you are explaining away God's Word because it doesn't fit into "the mold", that one cannot lose faith in God.
We see Christ's example all the time in the real world. Denying that is futile. People accept the faith, then someone close to them dies, and they leave the faith, blaming God. Before that death, they believed in God and were absolutely indistinguishable from any other "saved" person. OSAS is terrible theology, since, in reality, it denies that a person can EVER know they are saved - because then someone may say "you never were saved to begin with" later in your life if you fall away! What you say is so easy and secure to obtain, salvation, is in actuality, never secure, since later, it might be judged by the "powers to be" that we never had "enough faith" to begin with...
It reminds me of the tent-healer who makes someone repeat 190 times "I believe" to receive a healing - and when this doesn't work, the poor guy "never had enough faith to begin with to make the healing work"...
Thus, your theology begs the question "how much is enough faith to be saved"? Since people can have "insufficient faith", or latter judged to have "untrue faith", then where is the "faith meter" that tells Protestants that they have enough so that if they falter later, that they already exceeded their faith requirements in the past, so that future failings will not deem them "unsaved after all".
Sophistry...
The book of life is NOT the Lamb’s Book of Life- big difference here
Are there two books of life in heaven???
Who’s fitting what again? So when Paul states that a person who falls away can no longer be resored, it’s Hyperbole, but when Christ talks about the law being done away, and our salvation being secured and inscribed forever on God’s palms, it’s not literal either?
First of all, God doesn't have "palms", so forget the literal sense. Secondly, Christ said that God forgives sins of ANY who repents. He will do so seven times seventy, if necessary. Thirdly, Christ didn't do away with the Law. And finally, where did Christ say that our eternal salvation is secured and inscribed forever?
Nowhere is it stated that he loses salvation- he does however lose fellowship with God, just as a son loses fellowship with his father if he grieves him-
Salvation IS a relationship with God, not some legal document or passport! Losing fellowship with God makes us spiritually DEAD. How exactly does that mean we still have eternal life if we are spiritually DEAD???
Regards
ARE FUTURE SINS AUTOMATICALLY FORGIVEN?
Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) hinges on the theory that all sin (past, present, and future) are auto-forgiven at the first moment of true saving faith. The Bible has a different story.
Matthew 6:14-15
14: For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(How can the Father not forgive your tresspasses, if they were already all forgiven — past, present, and future?)
2 Corinthians 7:1
1: Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
(Speaking to the saved and washed, telling them to cleanse themselves of all filthiness. According to OSAS, they would have no filthiness to cleanse, because all sin — past, present, and future — is already forgiven, and hence, cleansed!)
Romans 3:24-25
24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(For the remission of sins that are past)
This last example is our final example, but can disprove the OSAS theory all by itself!
Matthew 18: 23. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
http://eternallysecure.com/futuresins.html
So you believe you earn your salvation. I do not.
LOL, you made that up.
I agree.
We must choose every day to believe.
But just WHAT is the TEMPTATION?
Is it to sin; or is it to UN-belief?
I doubt that I'll be sinless; but I have NO doubt that Jesus' work (it is finished) - His Grace - will save me.
If I have to be on my guard for the rest of my life; afraid that i might sin and then die before I get a 'chance' to 'repent' of that sin: that's no way to live.
It's called:
Saved by Grace;
Kept by Works.
That's funny!
Two thousand years on and 3rd graders are easily able to make the whole body of Catholic "scholarship" look absurd!
(I hope you are not trying now to dismiss your 3rd grade critique as childishly legalistic. Catholic doctrine is, after all, built on endless "scholarship" trucking in arcane, legalistic arguments. And -- for the record -- I will observe that the question with which this thread is launched is one that ought to give Protestants a huge headache.)
Why is that?
Because it shows Protestant theology to be a house of cards.
Continuous sin leads to doubt and disbelief. You must have witnessed people who have gone through this? Unfortunately, people who claim to be Christians fall into the slavery of sin - which can lead to disbelief in God and a subsequent falling away from Christ. While I admit that the more "seasoned" Christian is less likely to falter even in difficult times, it does happen. My contention is not that it happens often, but even if it happens ONCE, that destroys OSAS.
Regards
"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance ..." is referring to the spiritual transformation fruit which The Holy Spirit accomplishes and which you are incapable of producing of your own works because the 'fruits worthy of repentence' are the 'righteousification' evidence ONLY God has the perfect power to produce for they are embue by His LIFE in you. By submitting self for Him to transform daily, you 'work out your own salvation ONLY through submission, never through your fleshly efforts.
OK, so that means one MUST have works to be saved for eternal heaven, correct? Doesn't this discount "sola fide"?
Regards
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.