If You Are Saved, Are Your Future Sins Forgiven?

10/28/07 | Pinochet

[pinochet]

I am a Catholic who is trying to understand Protestant history and teachings, in order to better understand the history of Christianity. There is one issue that I do not understand.

According to Protestant teachings, if a person becomes saved, are his future sins forgiven? Can a person lose his salvation? If not, can assurance of salvation become a license to sin?

If Ted Haggard had gone to be with the Lord early last year, while in the process of getting a "massage" from his male "friend", would he have gone straight to heaven?

[Secret Agent Man]

I see your point about works. However, you have to also realize that ALL of our works, including our very BEST works, are filthy rags to God, as per Scripture.

Christ is the only thing that makes them acceptable to God. I think this affirms your point about works done without faith, as you mention.

I would expound or clarify your point about such works and state that such works would include those works done by people when they believe such works will earn them God’s merit. they are not works done with faith in God, but partially or completely having faith in oneself to earn ANY iota of merit from God.

Like I said before, if we lived perfectly from this day forward, all we would be doing is living the way God expects us to live. You don’t get rewards for doing what is expected of you. That is just the minimum that you can do. That doesn’t cancel out your life before you lived perfectly. You’d have to go above and beyond what is simply expected of you to clear your prior sin debts. And since none of us can do the minimum, on our own, we’re dead. we could not have confidence we would be saved and have eternal life without Christ.

[Cvengr]

I agree. Here’s another interesting facet.

Regarding known and unknown sin. Per 1stJohn 1:9, when we repent and confess our sin He is sure and just to forgive us our sin. The Holy Spirit is free to sanctify us while we are in fellowship with Him, but as soon as we sin, we slip out of fellowship.

A great deal of scarring goes on in our thinking processes while we are out of fellowship with Him.

When we sin a known sin, we have a conscience which brings it to our attention so we can repent and confess it, then all our unknown sins are also immediately forgiven.

However, until we hit one of those known sins, we may not be cognizant of the unknown sins (defn of cognizance).

So, an indicator that we might be scarring our thinking processes, is if we begin to think we haven’t sinned in a long while, that also means there might have been a alot of unknown sins which we were not aware of thereby removing us from fellowship with Him, unwittingly.

For example, driving 22 mph in a 20 mph zone. Giving offense unwittingly. All these might cause us to step out of fellowship with Him. Good incentive to go on praying continually, keeping Him in our minds constantly and always through faith in Him in all things.

[Grunthor]

“Whether you believe it to be in reference to Purgatory or not, that certainly “resembles” it. Catholics who look to any significant explanation on Purgatory will find that as one of the supporting verses.”

It’s a stretch. A gigantic one.

[Cvengr]

Greek was the language of that day. Aramaic and Koine greek and Attic Greek are found in different books of the new testament in earliest manuscripts.

Old Testament, obviously in Hebrew, or the flaming language.

Interestingly, before I studied any Hebrew, I had dreams where Hebrew characters were presented to me as well as some in Greek and Aramaic. Go figure.

[Grunthor]

Again, these aren’t exhaustive, nor will they be sufficient if you’re looking for a verse that says “Look, here’s Purgatory.” Nor will you find the word “purgatory” because it’s a Latin word used to express a Truth of Scripture (just as you won’t find the words “incarnation” or “Trinity”).

I can’t force you or anyone else to believe. That task is one for the Holy Spirit. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

---

I will check out those lilnks tomorrow, but I am not one to look at scripture and try to bend it to fit what I want.

[Cvengr]

Thanks for the constructive criticism. In all fairness, I still will devote some study time to the source doctrines, through faith in Christ. Thanks.

[Secret Agent Man]

I did want to mention your post about the stumbling block point. I think we all are, with different things. In some cases there is a fine line between apologetics and realizing the debate with a person is not fruitful. I have to remind myself to pray and hope that it will plant a seed or question in that person’s mind that will cause them to reflect more on the point and perhaps study the issue and grow in their understanding. I don’t do that often enough and I really need to remember to do that. Not everyone is at the same place in their walk, and not everyone is ready for certain things at the same time. I know that there were times in my life I would not have been ready to hear certain things, or they would not have been important to me at that point.

Thank God we have a conscience that can help us to know when it is acceptable to object to certain things, and let other things of lesser importance pass. There are some things always worth defending or fighting for, there are some that may be, given the circumstances, and there are some that aren’t. Sometimes we also find ourselves in spots where it isn’t possible not to offend someone, because they are just waiting to be offended by us so that they can be offended and have cause against us.

[Old Mountain man]

Since the originals are obviously not in existence, why do we assume the originals were in Greek and not in either Hebrew or Aramaic?

[Blue Highway]

Absolutely, I will pray the study time won’t be in vain, as you will be growing stronger being in the Word with our Lord.

[MHGinTN]

According to even pagan historians (non-Jewish, non-Christian), the Greek translation of the Jewish Testament (the Old Testament to us) was what Jesus and the Apostles quoted from, in Greek. The veracity of the interpretations is found in the parallel translations made in Ethiopic, Syriac, and other languages of the New Testament Church days. You can scoff at that in order to reject plain teaching, but it is juvenile given the scholarship now available with more manuscripts verifying the New Testament passages in Greek than are available for even the Greek classics like Homer.

[Cvengr]

I need to do a little homework on that one. FF Bruce or Gleason Archer, I believe had some good studies on introduction to the New Testament speaking to the issue. Josh McDowell has quite a few books on apologetics which touch in the issue.
IMHO, it’s fairly well accepted that NT was in Greek, OT in Hebrew originally. Christ also spoke in Aramaic, but also Hebrew obviously. Koine Greek and Aramaic were the common languages of the eastern Roman empire of that day and educated scholars wrote in more formal Attic Greek, and some law from Rome in Latin, but much of the daily Roman business was conducted in the language of the empire, namely Greek.

[Secret Agent Man]

thanks, I agree with your posting as well.

I want to bring up one thing about secular laws though. They are not God’s laws, and we always may have to disobey civil laws that are in conflict with God’s laws. We have a conscience and the Holy Spirit to help us determine for ourselves if the bible is not clear on a particular law. But if your reasoning processes have their foundation in fundamental biblical principles you should be able to determine if the law is acceptable from a Christian point of view.

There also may be secular laws that allow for you to do something that God’s laws don’t, so your conscience and the Holy Spirit need to work to keep you from doing those things and using the excuse “well the government says I can do it so it’s okay”.

Further there may be laws that are immoral in some other way (race preferences, to oppress certain groups, etc) that we can and should ignore. Even our justices said that any law that is repugnant to our constitution is null and void and we don’t have to follow it. I don’t necessarily encourage testing it out on your favorite pet peeve law, but it’s still true.

Further following laws enacted by corrupt politicians for secret reasons I am not necessarily obligated to follow either. Take the people in Tennessee who are going across the border to buy cigarettes because there are less taxes on them than in Tennessee. Tennessee doesn’t care about health or cigarette quality or anything else, they want the guys’ money. If he buys too many cigs, and they catch him coming back they womp a huge fine on them.

I’m not extremely bothered with speed laws going 5-10 over, as many places post lower speed limits knowing people will go 5-10 over. Also, roads are normally engineered (at least highways) to handle traffic at 10-15 miles over the posted limit. Our speed laws are not really set up for safety as they claim, but to make sure each state gets a chunk of the federal highway fund pork.

There are times when we have to stand against secular laws. there are also times when secular law makes things legal that are immoral and we have to stand against that. For other laws that are minor and arbitrary, I don’t worry too much about them (ie like going a little faster than the speed limit). I have a hard enough time trying to live Godly and focus on the 10 commandments. I’m not going out of my way to break laws I think are minor or stupid, but I don’t lose sleep over them. I believe that dumb and/or offensive laws should be ignored, especially if they go against common sense.

[MHGinTN]

Thanks to freeper Diamond, we have the following from another thread regarding the Trinity, as example of how existing manuscripts (mss) are used to proof our Biblical sources:

The breakdown of the Greek manuscript evidence is as follows:

THE JOHANNINE COMMA-EARLY EVIDENCE FOR AND AGAINST

Total examined extant Greek manuscripts = 5,000 +
Total examined extant Greek manuscripts that contain I John 5 = 498
Total examined extant Greek manuscripts hostile to I John 5:7-8 = 492

Historical Breakdown of Hostile Evidence
2/498 ­ 4th century (a, B) = 0.4% of hostile evidence
2/498 ­ 5th century (A, 048) = 0.4% of hostile evidence
1/498 ­ 6th century (0296) = 0.2% of hostile evidence
0/498 ­ 7th century = 0.0% of hostile evidence
1/498 ­ 8th century (Y+) = 0.2% of hostile evidence
8/498 ­ 9th century (K, L, P, 049, 1424+, 1841+, 1862, 1895) = 1.6% of hostile evidence
484/498 ­ post 9th century = 97.2% of hostile evidence
30 mss. ­ 10th century
80 mss. ­ 11th century
79 mss. ­ 12th century
98 mss. ­ 13th century
119 mss. ­ 14th century
55 mss. ­ 15th century
15 mss. ­16th century
6 mss. ­ 17th century
1 mss. ­ 18th century
Historical Breakdown of Favorable Evidence
A.D. (ca.) 200 ­ Tertullian
250 ­ Cyprian
318 ­ Athanasius
350 ­ Idacius Clarus
380 ­ Priscillian
385 ­ Gregory of Nazanzius
390 ­ Jerome
450 ­ Contra Varimadum
450 ­ Latin mss. m
485 ­ Council of Carthage
485 ­ Victor of Vitensis
500 ­ Latin mss. r
527 ­ Fulgentius
570 ­ Cassiodorus
636 ­ Isidore of Seville
650 ­ Codex Pal Legionensus
700 ­ Jaqub of Edessa
735 ­ mss. used by Venerable Bede
850 ­ Codex Ulmensis

*In addition to the aforementioned favorable evidence, the Comma can be traced back through the Waldensian Church to the translation of the Old Italic in the 2nd century. Moreover, in the 7th century, at least 12 Old Latin mss contain the passage; at least 21 in the 8th century, and at least 189 in the 9th century. Over 6,000 Old Latin manuscripts remained unexamined to this day. It is also probable that the Comma was found in the Old Syriac tradition as far back as its translation. The Armenian and Slavonic versions bear witness to the Comma in several copies, and the German versions prior to Luther bear consistent testimony to it.

RESULT: The Johannine Comma enjoys at least 19 pieces of concrete favorable evidence predating the ninth century; hostile witnesses, on the other hand, can only claim 14 Greek manuscripts and an argument from silence with regard to the patristic evidence. The external evidence is not as one-sided as critical scholars would have us to believe. In fact, critical scholars accept other readings on far less evidence (e.g. Matthew 11:19; II Corinthians 5:3; James 4:14). Or, consider Mark 16:9-20. Scholars rejects this passage as an emendation based upon 3 Greek mss. One of those witnesses, Vaticanus, is actually favorable to the reading because it exhibits a vacant space where the eleven verses should be.
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Bible/casefor1john57.html

"...While the Greek textual evidence is weak, the Latin textual evidence for the Comma is extremely strong. It is in the vast majority of the Old Latin manuscripts, which outnumber the Greek manuscripts. Although some doubt if the Comma was a part of Jerome's original Vulgate, the evidence suggests that it was. Jerome states:

In that place particularly where we read about the unity of the Trinity which is placed in the First Epistle of John, in which also the names of three, i.e. of water, of blood, and of spirit, do they place in their edition and omitting the testimony of the Father; and the Word, and the Spirit in which the catholic faith is especially confirmed and the single substance of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is confirmed.
http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_1jo5_7.html

[CottShop]

2 Cor 5:8 - Absent of hte body, present with the Lord- pretty clear here: “and to be present with the Lord. This was promised to Christ in the everlasting covenant, that all his spiritual seed and offspring should be with him. This he expected; it was the joy of this which was set before him, that carried him through his sufferings and death with so much cheerfulness; this is the sum of his prayers and intercession, and what all his preparations in heaven are on the account of. It is this which supports and comforts the saints under all their sorrows here, and which makes them meet death with pleasure, which otherwise is formidable and disagreeable to nature; and even desirous of parting with life, to be with Christ, which is far better.” Gill

Phil 1:23 -”For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:” Paul looked forward to being present with Christ upon his death: “

” hence the present state of the saints is a state of absence from Christ; while they are at home in the body, they are absent from the Lord, especially as to his bodily presence; but after death they are immediately with him, where he is in his human nature; and their souls in their separate state continue with him till the resurrection morn, when their bodies will be raised and reunited to their souls, and be both for ever with him, beholding his glory, and enjoying uninterrupted communion with him; which will be the completion and full end of Christ’s preparations and prayers: hence it appears that there is a future being and state after death: the apostle desires to depart this life, and “be”, exist, be somewhere, “with Christ”; for the only happy being after death is with him; if souls are not with him, they are with devils and damned spirits, in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: and it is also manifest that souls do not sleep with the body in the grave until the resurrection; the souls of the saints are immediately with Christ, in the enjoyment of his presence, in happiness and glory, hoping, believing, and waiting for the resurrection of their bodies; had the apostle known that he must have remained after death in a state of inactivity and uselessness, deprived of the communion of Christ and of his church, it would have been no difficulty with him to determine which was most eligible, to live or die;” Gill

1 Thes 4:13-17 - Vs 14 states that Jesus WILL bring the Saints with Him when He returns- Pretty clear evidence that Christians are with Christ upon Death.

Rev 6:9-10, 7:9-14 - In the Tribulation- those hwo die clearly are in heaven- not in paradise

“Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

“And, lo - Indicating surprise. A vast host burst upon the view. Instead of the comparatively few who were sealed, an innumerable company were presented to his vision, and surprise was the natural effect.
“A great multitude - Instead of the comparatively small number on which the attention had been fixed.
“Which no man could number - The number was so great that no one could count them, and John, therefore, did not attempt to do it. This is such a statement as one would make who should have a view of all the redeemed in heaven. It would appear to be a number beyond all power of computation. This representation is in strong contrast with a very common opinion that only a few will be saved. The representation in the Bible is, that immense hosts of the human race will be saved; and though vast numbers will be lost, and though at any particular period of the world hitherto it may seem that few have been in the path to life, yet we have every reason to believe that, taking the race at large, and estimating it as a whole, a vast majority of the whole will be brought to heaven. For the true religion is yet to spread all over the world, and perhaps for many, many thousands of years, piety is to be as prevalent as sin has been; and in that long and happy time of the world’s history we may hope that the numbers of the saved may surpass all who have been lost in past periods, beyond any power of computation” Barnes

[CyberAnt]

I never said the original New Testament was in Greek.

The Amplified Bible is a literal Greek translation of the original Hebrew text.

I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

However, remember that Luke was Greek - and his Gospel might have originally been in Greek. Also .. Paul spoke several languages .. and while I’d have to research it - Greek was a known language of Paul’s time and I believe he spoke that language, along with Hebrew and Latin.

[CyberAnt]

I don’t know how God makes that judgment .. however, I have an anecdotal story regarding a modern day person who had basically turned away from God and had a rather unsavory way of life - with drugs and alcohol.

This person was a comedian and during a drive to his next gig, he and his manager were involved in a terrible car accident. The comedian was mortally wounded and was laying on the ground outside of the vehicle. The manager strugged to get out of the car (being injured himself), and finally made his way around the vehicle - where he found his friend and realized he was at death’s door. Suddenly, the comedian raised up slightly and a light seemed to illuminate his face - at that very moment, he reached out his mangled and bloodied arm out in front of him as though he was reaching for someone. The manager turned around to see who the comedian was reaching for - but no one was there - and then the comedian uttered these words, “Okay Jesus - I’m coming”. At that moment, the comedian slumped back on the road and he was dead.

Certainly, by all standards of living - most would say that this man didn’t deserve to go to heaven. I think we forget that Jesus KNOWS OUR HEART. He also came to earth as a human child and lived the life of a human - surely he knows how we struggle against our flesh. Even Paul said, “I do the things I don’t want to do and I don’t do the things I want to do”. I believe Jesus knows us much better than we know ourselves.

[A CA Guy]

We are not worthy, but we are saved through Christ.

It’s one thing to have a religious moment where we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.
It’s another thing to then turn you back on that moment, to not regret sinning or to in fact be proud of your sins.

Faith without good works is dead.
Supposed Salvation in name only without the desire to back it up is more than likely lacking the same way.

No free lunch, you either take responsibility of being sorry for your weaknesses and asking God to forgive and help you or you don’t.

[A CA Guy]

Weak and reliant on God, repentant in your sin is one thing.

Saying you asked to be saved and then showing no evidence of it in your life doesn’t sound like a true believer to begin with.

God sees what is true and what was false and will act accordingly IMO.

[Cvengr]

Repentance doesn’t mean feeling sorry. Repentance is returning back to God.

It might be better understood that sin is missing the mark, or anything whatsoever in our thinking with out volition which is not of God. We might think of something that is very, very good, but independent of God with our volition and that would still qualify as sin. Turning away from sin and turning back to God with our volition is repentance.

Think of walking with somebody and looking at them. You look away, same with sin, the object of our thinking and volition is no longer in fellowship with Him, but is on something else, anything else. Repentance is then turning back to God with God as the object of our thinking.

So when we have faith in Christ, we hold God the Son as the object in our thinking.

When we believe, through faith in Christ, we are thinking in a fashion by which He is still our number one priority in how we perceive all things.

Repentance isn’t some loser crying and wimping out in front of God. It’s simply turning back to Him.

Then in privacy, we may confess our sins to God, again through faith in Christ. When this happens, God is sure and just to forgive us our sins, becasue we have exercised the exact same faith in Him as did the Son of God as our example in His humanity.

Then we are back in fellowship with Him, where He can continue to grow us and sanctify us again through faith in Him.

[CottShop]

You know- I used to get all caught up in works and feeling like a ‘works loser’ because I couldn’t keep from sinning and didn’t do ‘enough works’ to make me feel I guess ‘righteous enough’ for Christ- then someone explained to me that it’s not what we do only, but what we don’t do that is concidered ‘working for Christ’, and as Christians, we don’t do a LOT of htings that people without Christ do- We don’t muck with Satanic oija boards, we don’t offer sacrifices to the evil one, we don’t engage in debauchery for htem ost part etc, and people forget that works isn’t always about activities and constantly being engaged in stuff like missions etc, but it’s also about not giving ourselves totally to hte evil one.

I’ve known a lot of legalistic Christians, and some have said to our familiy that because we have Christmas decorations like the tree and Santa figure etc that we had ‘idols’ inplace, and it dawned on me that no, that isn’t true- Idols are objects of worship and devotion- and I know for a fact that I don’t get up in the mornings and pour out purfumes and oils to the Santa Figures and ask it’s guidance for the day- nor do I sacrifice humans to it and hope for blessings and good crops for my deed.

Salvation is a once for all act, and I think Christians get tripped up by the verses that talk about ‘working out your own salvation’ and get caught up in legalistic Christianity as a result.

As has been said here many times, Christ KNOWS our hearts, He knows we’re not giving our souls to the Evil One, and He knows that we care about other’s souls and that we do what we can when the oportunity arises- Forcing a ‘working out of our own salvations’ is a process that just leads to a works based faith, a legalistic and judgemental one as we’re often judging our ‘standing’ before God by how much we do and by how much others do- Remember folks, David’s own son, who was a scoundral and lame was ALWAYS welcomed to the King’s Table for supper and fellowship and was in no way cast out- that story IS an example of all of our standings with the King Of Kings!

Amen, The End, Halleluhian Brother Ben