Posted on 10/25/2007 9:24:05 AM PDT by NYer
The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy, by the historian Sergio Luzzatto, draws on a document found in the Vatican's archive.
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The document reveals the testimony of a pharmacist who said that the young Padre Pio bought four grams of carbolic acid in 1919.
"I was an admirer of Padre Pio and I met him for the first time on 31 July 1919," wrote Maria De Vito.
She claimed to have spent a month with the priest in the southern town of San Giovanni Rotondo, seeing him often.
"Padre Pio called me to him in complete secrecy and telling me not to tell his fellow brothers, he gave me personally an empty bottle, and asked if I would act as a chauffeur to transport it back from Foggia to San Giovanni Rotondo with four grams of pure carbolic acid.
"He explained that the acid was for disinfecting syringes for injections. He also asked for other things, such as Valda pastilles."
The testimony was originally presented to the Vatican by the Archbishop of Manfredonia, Pasquale Gagliardi, as proof that Padre Pio caused his own stigmata with acid.
It was examined by the Holy See during the beatification process of Padre Pio and apparently dismissed.
Padre Pio, whose real name was Francesco Forgione, died in 1968. He was made a saint in 2002. A recent survey in Italy showed that more people prayed to him than to Jesus or the Virgin Mary. He exhibited stigmata throughout his life, starting in 1911.
The new allegations were greeted with an instant dismissal from his supporters. The Catholic Anti-Defamation League said Mr Luzzatto was a liar and was "spreading anti-Catholic libels".
Pietro Siffi, the president of the League, said: "We would like to remind Mr Luzzatto that according to Catholic doctrine, canonisation carries with it papal infallibility.
"We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."
But humans are not angels; they were created afterwards.
Men are to judge angels, too. Men don’t judge themselves (except possibly here in the Religion forum).
I went to, (inhale deeply) "The Protestant Episcopal Seminary in Virginia" aka VTS, aka, (among the more chauvinistic Virginians), "The Seminary". Escaped with my degree in '76 after I did a year as a hospital chaplain between my 2nd and 3rd years. Got ordained just in time to watch the Episcopal Church crumble around me.
Seminary was not too bad. Lots of Barth, and even if you disagree with him, the guy is good. But I was the only one in my class who had actually read great chunks of Aquinas, Luther, Dante, Calvin, And Kierkgaard (but not much among the Wesley boys) before Seminary. And I'd done some Hegel work so I was all set for Tillich, not to mention Heidegger. (Did you know Hegel wrote some "Christian" works? Not very good. But I've read them.
A brother priest once said to me,"I know what you are: you're a philosophical theologian!" to which if I were allowed to add "ignorant" I'd cop.
I was thinking maybe Qualcomm Stadium... :o)
Our Bible studies in classes on the difference between literal and figurative speech.
As a Catholic convert, I accepted the teachings of the Church.
Because I believe the RCC is wrong about a great many things I am sorry for you. What was the church you were previously a part of?
"578 Jesus, Israel's Messiah and therefore the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, was to fulfill the Law by keeping it in its all embracing detail - according to his own words, down to "the least of these commandments".330 He is in fact the only one who could keep it perfectly.331 On their own admission the Jews were never able to observe the Law in its entirety without violating the least of its precepts.332 This is why every year on the Day of Atonement the children of Israel ask God's forgiveness for their transgressions of the Law. The Law indeed makes up one inseparable whole, and St. James recalls, "Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."333
493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.
Sin is defined as breaking the law of God.
Which is true? Was Jesus the ONLY one that could fulfill all the Law (not sin) or not?
maryz:”We pray for what we need and ask others to pray too, even though it’s not for something they need.”
To better illustrate my point as to the purpose of prayer, let me explain a situation currently going on in our particular church:
There was recently a young woman in our church who has been diagnosed with brain tumors and is receiving medical treatment for this condition. As a church, we are praying for this individual in many ways - one part of the prayer is that she will be healed of these tumors. But we don’t expect that the number of prayers we recite nor the number of people that pray will have a direct impact on God’s will for this woman. He obviously brought the tumors into existence to fulfill a divine purpose and if He chooses for them to be eradicated, then so be it. But if He desires for this woman to continue to suffer or even die of this condition, then all the prayers in the world will not change this.
We realize that God’s sovereign plan is much greater and more perfect that our perceived need or desires. If God answered prayers based on the number of votes or intensity, then outcomes would be based on the desires and wills of sinful men. When we pray with this understanding, we turn the issues faithfully over to God and acknowledge our need and our imperfect understanding.
What do the saints do when we pray fervently (to them) for something that is bad for us which is not in God’s eternal plan? Are these saints able to see into God’s mind and know that this prayer should not be prayed? Or do they echo the prayer as well? Do you think that a prayer prayed to/thru a saint will be more effectual than a prayer to God?
You could call her Theodora , and when she asks why, you could get her interested in Greek.
That's why Gabriel called her "Full of Grace."
Dawg: “Sorry for the “Duhs,””
That’s alright. It is good to know that we agree on so many points!! You are correct that I don’t know you and that is the very reason I made the above statements - to see if we were talking the same lingo.
So my question is, do you apportion any greater virtue or outcome by asking Dominic to intercede versus your fellow (living) Christian?
“The Seminary” among Virginia Anglicans. :>)
Not to be too hard on you, but I really think the Anglicans were originally connected to the Eastern Fathers instead of to Rome.
You’re not home yet.
You’re in a campsite along the way. (Kolo, I’ve got a potential convert for you. :>)
I doubt she is, but that doesn't mean it's real.
In my neighborhood, there is a highway underpass where a group of RC's have seen the picture of Mary in a water mark. They put flowers there, burn candles and "venerate" it. They have been doing this for over a year now. If you look at the water mark, you see a water mark. However, if you get closer and stand with a group of people who see Mary you begin to see things in the water mark.
The power of suggestion in an emotion filled group setting easily changes perception.
I. JESUS AND THE LAW
577 At the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount Jesus issued a solemn warning in which he presented God’s law, given on Sinai during the first covenant, in light of the grace of the New Covenant:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets: I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law, until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.329
578 Jesus, Israel’s Messiah and therefore the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, was to fulfill the Law by keeping it in its all embracing detail - according to his own words, down to “the least of these commandments”.330 He is in fact the only one who could keep it perfectly.331 On their own admission the Jews were never able to observe the Law in its entirety without violating the least of its precepts.332 This is why every year on the Day of Atonement the children of Israel ask God’s forgiveness for their transgressions of the Law. The Law indeed makes up one inseparable whole, and St. James recalls, “Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.”333
579 This principle of integral observance of the Law not only in letter but in spirit was dear to the Pharisees. By giving Israel this principle they had led many Jews of Jesus’ time to an extreme religious zeal.334 This zeal, were it not to lapse into “hypocritical” casuistry,335 could only prepare the People for the unprecedented intervention of God through the perfect fulfillment of the Law by the only Righteous One in place of all sinners.
Taking stuff out of context could be misconstrued as bearing false witness. But I will happily leave that conversation to you and Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
“Rejoice, you who are full of grace”
721 Mary, the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God, is the masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time. For the first time in the plan of salvation and because his Spirit had prepared her, the Father found the dwelling place where his Son and his Spirit could dwell among men. In this sense the Church’s Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary.101 Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the “Seat of Wisdom.”
In her, the “wonders of God” that the Spirit was to fulfill in Christ and the Church began to be manifested:
722 The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily”102 should herself be “full of grace.” She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin as the most humble of creatures, the most capable of welcoming the inexpressible gift of the Almighty. It was quite correct for the angel Gabriel to greet her as the “Daughter of Zion”: “Rejoice.”103 It is the thanksgiving of the whole People of God, and thus of the Church, which Mary in her canticle104 lifts up to the Father in the Holy Spirit while carrying within her the eternal Son.
723 In Mary, the Holy Spirit fulfills the plan of the Father’s loving goodness. Through the Holy Spirit, the Virgin conceives and gives birth to the Son of God. By the Holy Spirit’s power and her faith, her virginity became uniquely fruitful.105
724 In Mary, the Holy Spirit manifests the Son of the Father, now become the Son of the Virgin. She is the burning bush of the definitive theophany. Filled with the Holy Spirit she makes the Word visible in the humility of his flesh. It is to the poor and the first representatives of the gentiles that she makes him known.106
725 Finally, through Mary, the Holy Spirit begins to bring men, the objects of God’s merciful love,107 into communion with Christ. And the humble are always the first to accept him: shepherds, magi, Simeon and Anna, the bride and groom at Cana, and the first disciples.
726 At the end of this mission of the Spirit, Mary became the Woman, the new Eve (”mother of the living”), the mother of the “whole Christ.”108 As such, she was present with the Twelve, who “with one accord devoted themselves to prayer,”109 at the dawn of the “end time” which the Spirit was to inaugurate on the morning of Pentecost with the manifestation of the Church.
Contradiction? Nope, not in any fashion.
LOL. You’re being refined as we speak. Isaiah 48. 8~)
And that's goofy. What can I say, we got some goofy people same as every other group. There are a ton of so-called "apparitions" that are rejected flat out as natural phenomena by the local bishop--you don't really hear about them. The Madonna-of-the-underpass things you are talking about don't even get to that level.
The power of suggestion in an emotion filled group setting easily changes perception.
LOL...that's exactly what all the skeptics say. That's really a nice way of saying these people are stupid and/or gullible. And I dunno how the power of suggestion makes someone grow bleeding holes in their hands or smell roses.
Note that I'm not arguing all alleged supernatural events are supernatural. I'm saying you cannot dismiss an event as non-supernatural out of hand.
Mary is blessed among women, nothing more. She is not co-redemmer and you guys pray to her like she is. Jesus is her savior as well.
I did a lot of things with acid in my time, but it never occurred to me to fake stigmata with it. How does that work exactly?Okay. I feel better now.
You are correct, of course.
I never used to throw in the George Whitefield piece.
And Arminius used to be much less than a “twist.” I barely thought of him at all.
I know you don’t like him, but I think he’s the closest to being a Whitefield Methodist that a man could be without going all the way into the calvinist camp.
(BTW, I know the Arminius preceded Whitefield. I also know that you know that I know it...but for the sake of others this disclaimer has been appended. :>)
If there is "nothing binding" If there is an "error" I would like to know which is error, That only Christ could keep the whole law perfectly, or that Mary also kept the law perfectly?
Only one can be true ...
I was taught that believers don't pray TO saints, they pray WITH them. When two are gathered in the Lord's name...He is with them.
“She is not co-redemmer and you guys pray to her like she is.”
No Catholic I have ever met does any such thing, nor do they believe the Blessed Mother to be a “co-redeemer”. Neither from a priest nor a deacon nor a bishop have I heard any such doctrine.
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