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To: Grudgebringer; Rutles4Ever
The Queen Mother concept is from the Babylonian religions, not Christianity. If what you say is true then Jesus would have said so. All of you dismiss I Timothy and none of you have addressed it so far, you ignore it.

Mary is blessed among women, nothing more. She is not co-redemmer and you guys pray to her like she is. Jesus is her savior as well.

395 posted on 10/26/2007 11:14:17 AM PDT by Tolkien (There are things more important than Peace. Freedom being one of those.)
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To: Tolkien

“She is not co-redemmer and you guys pray to her like she is.”

No Catholic I have ever met does any such thing, nor do they believe the Blessed Mother to be a “co-redeemer”. Neither from a priest nor a deacon nor a bishop have I heard any such doctrine.


400 posted on 10/26/2007 11:20:21 AM PDT by TheStickman
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To: Tolkien

“The Queen Mother concept is from the Babylonian religions, not Christianity.”

I never said Christianity, I said the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Go back and read Kings.

There is a principle of succession seen in the Davidic kingdom. There is also the important role of the prime minister in David’s kingdom who holds the “keys to the kingdom” and the queen mother who had influence with the king.

The gebhirah, or queen mother, occupied a position of high social and political importance; she took rank almost with the king. When Bath-sheba, the mother of Solomon, desired “to speak unto him for Adonijah,” her son “rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a throne to be set for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right hand” (1 Ki 2:19).

Dan 5:10 the term malketha’ “queen,” really means the mother of the king).

The political importance of the gebhirah (the Queen Mother) is illustrated by the fact that in the Books of Kings, with two exceptions, the names of the Jewish kings are recorded together with those of their respective mothers; they are as follows: Naamah, the Ammonitess, the mother of Rehoboam (1 Ki 14:21; compare 14:31, and 2 Ch 12:13); Maacah, the daughter of Abishalom (1 Ki 15:2) or Absalom (2 Ch 11:20) the mother of Abijah; Maacah, the daughter of Abishalom, the mother of Asa (1 Ki 15:10; compare 2 Ch 15:16); Azubah, the daughter of Shilhi, the mother of Jehoshaphat (1 Ki 22:42; compare 2 Ch 20:31); Athaliah, the grand-daughter of Omri, the mother of Ahaziah (2 Ki 8:26; compare 2 Ch 22:2); Zibiah of Beersheba, the mother of Jehoash (2 Ki 12:1; compare 2 Ch 24:1); Jehoaddin (Jehoaddan, 2 Ch 25:1) of Jerusalem, the mother of Amaziah (2 Ki 14:2); Jecoliah (Jechiliah, 2 Ch 26:3) of Jerusalem, the mother of Azariah (2 Ki 15:2) or Uzziah (2 Ki 15:13,30, etc.; compare 2 Ch 26:3); Jerusha (Jerushah, 2 Ch 27:1), the daughter of Zadok, the mother of Jotham (2 Ki 15:33); Abi (Abijah, 2 Ch 29:1), the daughter of Zechariah, the mother of Hezekiah (2 Ki 18:2); Hephzibah, the mother of Manasseh (2 Ki 21:1); Meshullemeth, the daughter of Haruz of Jotbah, the mother of Amon (2 Ki 21:19); Jedidah, the daughter of Adaiah of Bozkath, the mother of Josiah (2 Ki 22:1); Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah, the mother of Jehoahaz (2 Ki 23:31); Zebidah, the daughter of Pedaiah of Rumah, the mother of Jehoiakim (2 Ki 23:36); Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem, the mother of Jehoiachin (2 Ki 24:8); Hamutal (Hamital), the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah, the mother Of Zedekiah (2 Ki 24:18). The exceptions are Jehoram and Ahaz.

“In the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam the son of Nabat, Abijam became king over Judah. 2 He ruled for three years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Maacah the daughter of Abishalom.”

” In the twentieth year of Jeroboam the king of Israel, Asa began to rule as king of Judah. 10 He ruled for fortyone years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Maacah the daughter of Abishalom. 11 And Asa did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, like David his father. 12 He sent away the men from the land who sold the use of their bodies in their religion. He took away all the false gods his father had made. 13 He stopped his mother Maacah from being queen mother...”

No Queen Mothers in Juda huh?

The new covenant fulfills the Davidic covenant and is a kingdom like the kingdom of David. Jesus sets up 12 apostles, a prime minister who holds the keys and a queen mother in His own kingdom the Promised Land of Heaven.

Go read Samuel and Luke. You have to understand Typology. The old testament was meant to be read along with the New. Not before the New. The New is concealed in the Old and the Old is revealed in the New.

David went out to retrieve the ark (1 Sam 6:1-2). After a man named Uzzah was struck dead when he touched the ark, David was afraid and said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” He left the ark in the hill country of Judea for three months. David danced and leapt in front of the ark and everyone shouted for joy. The house of Obededom, which had housed the ark, was blessed, and then David took the ark to Jerusalem (2 Sam. 6:9-14).

Compare David and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord” (Luke 1:39-45).

Here are the parallels:

* Mary arose and went to the hill country of Judea. Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided) are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea.
* When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” Elizabeth uses almost the same words: “Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke is telling us something — drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel.
* When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb — and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark. The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.
* When the Old Testament ark arrived — as when Mary arrived — they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.
* The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9-11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21-22).

It seems clear that Luke has used typology to reveal something about the place of Mary in salvation history. In the Ark of the Old Covenant, God came to his people with a spiritual presence, but in Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, God comes to dwell with his people not only spiritually but physically, in the womb of a specially prepared Jewish girl.

Now why did Uzzah die when he touched the Ark of the Covenant? Because he was with sin. Jesus the New Covenant could not be carried in a Flesh and Blood Ark that had been touched by Sin. Thus God blocked original Sin from Mary. Nothing is impossible for God. How do we know she is the New Ark? Read Revelation 11:19, “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple?’ Immediately following “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child” (Rev. 12:1-2)


630 posted on 10/26/2007 5:06:25 PM PDT by Grudgebringer
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