Posted on 10/25/2007 9:24:05 AM PDT by NYer
The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy, by the historian Sergio Luzzatto, draws on a document found in the Vatican's archive.
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The document reveals the testimony of a pharmacist who said that the young Padre Pio bought four grams of carbolic acid in 1919.
"I was an admirer of Padre Pio and I met him for the first time on 31 July 1919," wrote Maria De Vito.
She claimed to have spent a month with the priest in the southern town of San Giovanni Rotondo, seeing him often.
"Padre Pio called me to him in complete secrecy and telling me not to tell his fellow brothers, he gave me personally an empty bottle, and asked if I would act as a chauffeur to transport it back from Foggia to San Giovanni Rotondo with four grams of pure carbolic acid.
"He explained that the acid was for disinfecting syringes for injections. He also asked for other things, such as Valda pastilles."
The testimony was originally presented to the Vatican by the Archbishop of Manfredonia, Pasquale Gagliardi, as proof that Padre Pio caused his own stigmata with acid.
It was examined by the Holy See during the beatification process of Padre Pio and apparently dismissed.
Padre Pio, whose real name was Francesco Forgione, died in 1968. He was made a saint in 2002. A recent survey in Italy showed that more people prayed to him than to Jesus or the Virgin Mary. He exhibited stigmata throughout his life, starting in 1911.
The new allegations were greeted with an instant dismissal from his supporters. The Catholic Anti-Defamation League said Mr Luzzatto was a liar and was "spreading anti-Catholic libels".
Pietro Siffi, the president of the League, said: "We would like to remind Mr Luzzatto that according to Catholic doctrine, canonisation carries with it papal infallibility.
"We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."
Oh I don't either....but none of those, you'll notice, are sanctioned by the Church. They are kinda goofy things most of them.
I don't see any purpose being served in someone imitating the wounds of Christ by having red stains on their hands or in statues bleeding. Those are not miracles. Those are illusions.
Well, forgive my impertinence P-Marlowe, but what does it matter whether you or I see any purpose in it? God doesn't need our permission, or our consent that something is "logical" or appropriate. All things according to His good pleasure, right?
You or I or anyone else are not compelled to believe in Padre Pio's stigmata. That's a prudential judgment, so if you are skeptical that's fine. But just don't hand the rationalists and skeptics their own victory by denying that it could happen on principle...because as you rightly recognized, that can easily be applied to every miracle in Scripture as well.
I'd recommend you investigate Padre Pio to determine whether it is an illusion or not. Do some intense research on it, and see where the preponderance of evidence lies. And deny it if you feel you must, but don't exclude it on principle.
“It is NO mystery it is an inconsistency in your church teaching.”
Nope. It’s not. Your repeating of that false assertion over and over won’t change the Truth about Christ, Our Blessed Savior and the reality of his Blessed Mother, Mary.
“If they are wrong in their Catechism how could that be if the Pope and Magastum under him are infallible ?”
LOL! That’s actually comical. The Catechism is not wrong at all. Also the Pope and the Magisterium are only infallible regarding the Salvation of souls thru Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/chura4.htm
The Magisterium or Teaching Authority of the Church
by Fr. William G. Most
By the Magisterium we mean the teaching office of the Church. It consists of the Pope and Bishops. Christ promised to protect the teaching of the Church : “He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects your rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me” (Luke 10. 16). Now of course the promise of Christ cannot fail: hence when the Church presents some doctrine as definitive or final, it comes under this protection, it cannot be in error; in other words, it is infallible. This is true even if the Church does not use the solemn ceremony of definition. The day to day teaching of the Church throughout the world, when the Bishops are in union with each other and with the Pope, and present something as definitive, this is infallible. (Vatican II, Lumen gentium # 25). It was precisely by the use of that authority that Vatican I was able to define that the Pope alone, when speaking as such and making things definitive, is also infallible. Of course this infallibility covers also teaching on what morality requires, for that is needed for salvation.
A “theologian” who would claim he needs to be able to ignore the Magisterium in order to find the truth is strangely perverse: the teaching of the Magisterium is the prime, God-given means of finding the truth. Nor could he claim academic freedom lets him contradict the Church. In any field of knowledge, academic freedom belongs only to a properly qualified professor teaching in his own field. But one is not properly qualified if he does not use the correct method of working in his field, e.g., a science professor who would want to go back to medieval methods would be laughed off campus, not protected. Now in Catholic theology , the correct method is to study the sources of revelation, but then give the final word to the Church. He who does not follow that method is not a qualified Catholic theologian. Vatican II taught (Dei Verbum # 10): “The task of authoritatively interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on [Scripture or Tradition], has been entrusted exclusively to the living Magisterium of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.”
Jesus is God. The Blessed Mother, Mary, through the Power of the Holy Spirit gave birth to Him and, she humbly expressed that all generations will call her blessed because of the great things the Lord had done in her (Luke 1:48 – 49).
This is a falsehood. Why do you bear false witness against your neighbor?
I love the Wesleys. I always think about you when my Girl Scout troops meets, because we meet at a United Methodist Church that's full of the nicest people. The new pastor, a beautiful African-American lady about my age, came around last week and introduced herself to all the leaders.
There are different levels of authority, and different levels of clarity or precision, even in a catechism. But nothing presented as binding on all the faithful is false.
I certainly hope I won't stay as ignorant as I am now, for all eternity.
Thank you!
Using precedent and historical tradition as a guide CAN be useful but certainly is not the fundamental basis for belief!
= = =
WELL SAID.
THX.
True. But unanimous precedent and for-over-a-dozen-centuries uncontested historic tradition counts for a heckuvalot more, especially when you're talking about a Church which has some hefty guarantees from her Founder.
And BTW, the Church never proclaimed any doctrines supporting the institution of slavery or the oppression of women. Quite the contrary.
You only ask people to pray for you for their own good?
Sorry to hear of your loss, praying for the repose of your mother’s soul, may she rest in peace. Prayers for strength and comfort for you and yours during this sad time.
Have you read or cared to read any of the evidence? If so, what did you think was spurious? If not, why do you unjustly accuse?
I quite understand the concept between open threads and the Catholic Caucus label. What I do not understand is the POINT of attacks on a religious faith that has prevailed for centuries, nor the mocking, nastiness, and general rudeness of the tone of those attacks.
I do not consider this debate. I don’t like it, which is why I am not around here much anymore. Nothing is advanced, division is caused out of nothing more than spite, and in the process we have one more thing we can argue over while ignoring the danger of democrats running the country, Islamic terrorists killing our people, and Chinese infiltration of our political system.
There is more that brings Christians together than divides us, although one wouldn’t know it from reading this thread. While I respect the right of all to come onto this thread (since it isn’t protected) it seems to me that those who do could be a bit more courteous.
With that, I am leaving for quieter reading elsewhere.
Read them. “A Treasury of Prayers RELATED to the saints” (as in, “associated with them”), not “A Treasury of Prayers TO the saints”
Each and every one is directed to God, or, beseeches the saint to pray with the petitioner.
“To” Blessed Gianna Molla: “0 Jesus, I promise You to submit myself to all that You permit to befall me, make me only know Your Will...”
“to” John Neumann: “O Jesus, who on earth commanded and practiced a hidden life, grant that in these our days of pride...”
“to” John Neumann: “...Ask for us the graces necessary to help and to serve the poor...”
“to” Juan Diego: “…Pray for us…”
“to” Juan Diego: “… Help us to pray…”
“to” Junipero Serra: “...This we pray through Christ our Lord.”
Quit defaming the name of Tolkein by slandering the Church Tolkein held so dear. Necromancy is attempting to communicate with the dead. As Revelations makes plain, the saints are alive, sentient, in Heaven, observing events below on Earth, and praying to God. Asking saints for favors has two major limitations: they can’t do much but also make intercessory prayers, and they will not do anything contrary to the will of God. And God never objects to anyone asking another to pray for them; you’ll see it throughout the bible.
If he wanted to make his hands bleed, it would seem that scratching his own flesh with his own nails would be much more effective. It seems his use for Phenol was quite ordinary; at the time it *was*, in fact, regularly used as an antiseptic. As an agent to secretly induce puncture-like wounds, it seems a very strange choice.
maryz:”You only ask people to pray for you for their own good?”
I wish I could claim altruism and perfect love for others - but of course that would be a lie. I think that asking for prayers from other believers is a means for sharing our burdens and that God will grow our relationship to Him and bind us to each other in sharing those burdens.
When we pray to God, it confirms our utter dependence upon Him and helps us to understand our inability to sustain ourselves without Him. By praying to Saints, this seems (at least to me) to point us elsewhere for our sustenance...
St Xzins......has a ring, doesn’t it?
St X Bombers, from our town, are the nation’s #1 High School football team.
My alma mater is about #8 or 10 in the nation.
Big Football Town.
Do they have a patron saint of football yet.....we need a Saint LineJudge or a Co-Referee....TouchDown Jesus just don’t get us there! :>)
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