Posted on 10/25/2007 9:24:05 AM PDT by NYer
The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy, by the historian Sergio Luzzatto, draws on a document found in the Vatican's archive.
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The document reveals the testimony of a pharmacist who said that the young Padre Pio bought four grams of carbolic acid in 1919.
"I was an admirer of Padre Pio and I met him for the first time on 31 July 1919," wrote Maria De Vito.
She claimed to have spent a month with the priest in the southern town of San Giovanni Rotondo, seeing him often.
"Padre Pio called me to him in complete secrecy and telling me not to tell his fellow brothers, he gave me personally an empty bottle, and asked if I would act as a chauffeur to transport it back from Foggia to San Giovanni Rotondo with four grams of pure carbolic acid.
"He explained that the acid was for disinfecting syringes for injections. He also asked for other things, such as Valda pastilles."
The testimony was originally presented to the Vatican by the Archbishop of Manfredonia, Pasquale Gagliardi, as proof that Padre Pio caused his own stigmata with acid.
It was examined by the Holy See during the beatification process of Padre Pio and apparently dismissed.
Padre Pio, whose real name was Francesco Forgione, died in 1968. He was made a saint in 2002. A recent survey in Italy showed that more people prayed to him than to Jesus or the Virgin Mary. He exhibited stigmata throughout his life, starting in 1911.
The new allegations were greeted with an instant dismissal from his supporters. The Catholic Anti-Defamation League said Mr Luzzatto was a liar and was "spreading anti-Catholic libels".
Pietro Siffi, the president of the League, said: "We would like to remind Mr Luzzatto that according to Catholic doctrine, canonisation carries with it papal infallibility.
"We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."
I think your logic is divorced from the reality of what hearing thousands/millions of prayers entails.
If I talk to you, and you’re 2 thousand miles away, and you hear it, then you’ve got some really cool power going on.
And if a million of us talk to you, and you’re dead and gone to your reward, then you’ve got some really god-like power going on.
I have no problem with someone saying, “I pray to the Lord to let my grandpa know I love him, and to ask him to keep praying for me.”
The omniscient one doing the receiving is the Lord, and the distribution of knowledge is from the Lord outward.
We do that too!
And sometimes we ask others to pray for us. If I asked you topray for me, would that be a pointless exercise because could have gone straight to Jesus Christ?
No, really, please answer that question, because I'm fixin' to ask you to pray for me ;^)
I was trying to be fair with your claim that you don't pray to saints, so I called it "veneration" instead of worship and "address" instead of prayer.
"Do you have a copy of a prayer to Pio?" would have been the natural thing to ask, but shoot me for being "understanding."
For what it's worth my father is 80 years old. Your dad probably can lick him. (But my old guy will get in a few good shots. :>)
No it wouldn’t surprise me. (Are claiming omniscience since you suggest that you know more than I?) I have a pretty good idea of what army chaplains do since I had colleagues who were chaplains in various services and did a funeral at the Weymouth (sp? - it was in 1974) Air Station myself in coordination with a chaplain there.
Are you a priest?
(No...I’m claiming lots of experience.)
To be designated a caucus, the article and posts must not compare theologies and/or speak in behalf of another confession. If it does, the thread must be opened, so that rebuttals can be made.
If this thread had been marked "[Catholic Caucus]" - none of these disputes would have been posted.
All other threads are "open" for religious debate.
Religious debate is not ecumenic - so posters should expect contention on open threads. Those who are offended by such disputes can always find "safe harbor" on the closed threads.
Yes, Paul's asking others to pray for him is not an answer to a question about communication with those in heaven. It's an answer to the asked question about seeking for intercession.
With respect to asking for intercession, whether the person asked is on earth or in heaven is not to the point. So to raise the quite different issue of whether one can communicate with those in heaven is to change the subject from the subject of the question. IF, as was the case, the question is about intercession, THEN Paul's asking for intercession would put us where we have to say either that it is good to ask for intercession or that Paul erred (or we don't know yet). If we agree that it is good to ask for intercession, then we can examine the quite different question of whether we can or -- if we can -- should communicate with those in heaven.
Both points go to the question about asking for the intercession of the saints in heaven, but they are different questions.
"Is it considered ‘rude’ or sacrilegious to point at a Catholic saint’s picture or statue?"
No.
"Or are they considered just statues...but then why is such a fuss made over them by some people?"
Yes, of course they are just statues. People make a fuss over them for the same reason they make a fuss over anything that represents a beloved person or thing. Consider the ceremonial handling of the American flag, the respect paid to a memorial Cross for our dead service mena nd women, the affection shown to a photo of a loved one. (Have you ever kissed your child's little squiggly crayon drawing? or --- I don't know if you have a child --- kissed a photograph of your sweetie, at least when you were first all lovey-dovey?)
Some cultures are surely more demonstrative than others, and we should take that into account. I once thought the Russian Orthodox were a tad on the too-much side, but then I got used to it and I think it's touching and beautiful.
It's all so....so.....logical.
:>)
If my father were alive he'd be 103, so the battle of the walkers would be interesting to watch.
Have I told you my idea of the geezer SWAT team - for which I am old enough to qualify? It features walkers draped with Kevlar.
Former Episcopalian priest. Swam the Tiber in ‘94
The omniscient one doing the receiving is the Lord, and the distribution of knowledge is from the Lord outward.
NOW we're within hailing distance! (And I'm going to be late for work, darn it!) Yep, we rely on God to make the communication happen, and to make knowledge happen -- indeed to make every good thing happen.
Now I gotta go pray to Him and then feed cats and dog and clean up the corpse and do some work.
Interesting! I never heard that question before. I suppose one could be a Catholic and not do intercessory prayer, but .... hmm... that would be missing out on the whole "Communion of Saints" thing, which we very much believe in.
It strikes me as being similar to asking, "Can a person be a good family member by talking only to their parents, and never to their brothers and sisters?" Well...
Oh, that reminds me, I should send an e-mail to my brother. I do tend to neglect family sometimes, to tell you the truth. I'll get on that now. Thanks!
Judith Anne, that’s a very touching answer. I know how you feel. I lost my father in February, and I have certainly kissed his picture. Eternal life grant unto them, O Lord...
We Wesleyans will get you back.
Just need you to sit down a bit with Anglican priests John & Charles and you'll be eating out of our hands. :>)
That doesn't follow. All they have to know when I am praying to them is that I am praying to them. No omniscience is required whatsoever. Just a *higher* level of perception than you and I have here on earth...considering these folks are in heaven and perfected by grace, I hardly think that is too much to ask.
The standard explanation, and one which makes the most sense, is that God grants the saints the capacity to hear prayers that are addressed to them. It is not any ability of theirs, but a free gift of grace.
If you had a million talking to you could you keep it straight? Would you know the 2000 who were voicing your name at 2:30 in the morning? Why wouldn't you know? Because you're not omniscient.
Well, I can't walk through walls or go through the day without sinning either, and yet I fully expect to do those things in heaven. Do you not expect to have a higher understanding of things in heaven?
The saints are glorified. This has a profound effect on their nature.
I’m so sorry. Prayers for all.
Do you have a copy of a prayer to Pio that you can post on this thread? (Or a link)
Yes, but what about #315, Mr Freepaholic? :>)
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