Posted on 10/19/2007 9:51:40 AM PDT by NYer
No difference.
But first, it is incumbent on us to get these folks to abandon their skepticism, and that means getting to them in ways that they have some chance of understanding based on what they already know. Our time is unique in the number and kind of secular enticements, readily available via mass media, that the Church must contend against. Moreover, what is perceived as "rationality" is itslf often embraced as an enticement in its own right, at least in the self-congratulatory style we often see around us (Christopher Hitchens comes immediately to mind). We already made the mistake of simply being "relevant" in teaching through the culture, where ew quickly watered down theology to feel-goodism and a rationalization of all sorts of irrational behavior (witness the SPI fiasco in San Franciso, for example). We're too far removed (due to our own fault) from traditional catechetics to simply return to them instantaneously and without recourse to ancillary methods). Two generations of potential catechists do not know the faith well themselves, and cannot teach that way alone. Integrating a more "flow-chart," diagrammatic approach may be a good way to get the ball rolling in the West, at least until something resembling Christendom has been restored here.
Ethereal spirituality (even when authentic) is largely lost on the hard-edged, hyper-pragmatic, skeptical agnostics who pervade our western culture. St. Paul advised a diet of spiritual milk before the neophytes take to spiritual meat. Well, the milk of diagramming spiritual truths may be quite useful to this generation while they are spiritual infants, when they start teething in a spiritual way, we can introduce the chopped meat, and beyond that: the great day will dawn when we can introduce icons and other artistic expressions to coexist with the mystical writings of the saints! But, for many, for us to simply launch at them with a perceived tenuous tone is to simply lose them immediately. Hook 'em any way you can, so long as it can be integrated with a higher understanding of orthodoxy when the time is appropriate. I fail to see how employing such aids as the "steering wheel" with the likes of our contemporary unchurched cannot be integrated with traditional methods of teaching the Faith to achieve that end.
I’m sure that is what you believe, but our beliefs differ.
how do you read Isaiah 60:16 ?shalom b'shem Yahshua
Wonderful! Too many Catholics (and I might add Protestants) have forgotten the Holy Spirit. We need to put the words, “Holy Spirit” back into our vocabulary!
Onward, Holy Spirit, lead us!
“I fail to see how employing such aids as the “steering wheel” with the likes of our contemporary unchurched cannot be integrated with traditional methods of teaching the Faith to achieve that end.”
Perhaps such methods can be used. In the GOA right now there is something of a debate raging about what methods to use for catechesis. Interestingly, it is the modernists and “liberals” (sort if a meaningless term when applied to Orthodox, I know!)who seem positive about those methods. The conservatives are not at all enamored of them. Here’s the thing, its the traditional, very conservative (but English speaking) Orthodox parishes which are growing with converts arriving and secularized Orthodox returning to the fold while the liberal places (and the hyper ethnic parishes outside of Greek “ghettos”) are dying on the vine.
In my parish the Yankee converts seem to take to icons from the first day they walk into the temple. I suppose many of them had read about icons before they ever come to church, but a number have told me that it was the experience of icons “in real life” in a parish church which brought them out of protestantism or whatever and into The Church.
Emphasis added by me here.
I don’t think it’s possible to be offended on an anonymous web forum, but thanks.
I never gave it much thought. How do you read it?
Ahhhh .... there's an awesome icon that fits this, as well. Hats off to Kolokotronis for introducing me to it.
As the French would say - "sans paroles" - no words necessary. Each and every day is a struggle. There is no shortcut to Heaven. We are tempted at each and every stage of our journey. We can draw inspiration from the saints who have gone before us and set the examle to follow. Love this icon!
:)
Its called the Athanasian Creed, by the way.
I had never read this until you posted it. God bless you for this!
Really? I thought you would have. I discovered it a few months ago on Quicumque Sunday. We chanted it in procession around the nave. It really made an impression on me, and the more I look at it the more I become impressed with its clear, cogent declaration of the faith. It was obviously written (about 600 I think) to address certain heresies, Arianism, Nestorianism, and Gnosticism to name a few.
Many years ago, I attended an intensive group workshop intended to turn a group into a team. There is a BIG difference and I was most fortunate to be a member of the only group in that session, that achieved 'synergy' - transformation into a team where all of us together were more effective than any one individual. It was a life altering experience.
I thank you again for your earlier post. Try to view yourself as a member of a team, okay? Kudos on an excellent post!
I don’t understand. You actually hit on something, all I want in life is to live and work as part of a real team, but I don’t see what my statement about the Quicumque has to do with it. A team with you and Salvation and GOP_Thug_Mom and Frank Sheed and An American Mother and the other serious Catholics on this site? A team with my choir? (That’s what I like best about singing in the choir)
(sorry! < g > just got back from an all-day seminar, started at 8 am, with a big time retrieving guru from Florida, Carol Cassady. This lady knows her stuff! I really improved my teamwork with BOTH my dogs!)
**Never seen the steering wheel diagram before. I like it!**
Shouldn’t there be a ‘steering wheel’ with one spoke shorter and weaker for a short time when the equally powerful Son (according to the ‘trinity’) cried out to the Father for strength while in the garden. Or......
Maybe there should be a diagram with one spoke entirely missing for three days and three nights, as the Son died and later arose. Was part of God dead for that time? Or......
Maybe there needs to be a ‘seven spoke wheel’ since the Word speaks of the seven spirits of God.
Who was the Father of Jesus Christ? The Father or the Holy Ghost? Did God have two fathers?
It is simple. You desire a picture of God? Try starting with a blank sheet of paper. Nothing on it, nothing visible? God is a Spirit. There you have it. No man hath seen God.
But God is good, and has appeared USING visible images (Heb. 1:1). The Father was in Christ doing the works, telling him what to say; leaving the son so he COULD die on the cross. “Him hath God raised up..”, and “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of ALL THINGS....”. The fullness of the Godhead is found bodily in Jesus Christ. That’s why when someone calls on the name of Jesus, they ARE talking to the Father.
How many Spirits of God does a born again believer have in him/her? Jesus Christ said he would dwell in believers; physically, no, of course not, but Spiritually, yes. The Spirit of Christ IS the Holy Ghost. It’s the Spirit that left the Son while he was on the cross, and then raised him from the dead.
Jesus made it clear that God is a Spirit, and God gave not the Spirit by measure unto the Christ. But he cannot give all of his Spirit to us. We can’t HOLD it all.
Diagrams.......icons......that carnally attempt to portray the Godhead; reminds me of Jeroboam resorting to making golden calves to give the people of the ten tribes something religious to LOOK at.
It wasn’t a long period after the death of David that Solomon began down his slippery slope, which was increased by his son Rehoboam. Jeroboam was given ten tribes and anointed by God to correct this rebellion. He instead committed an even worse sin, building images to God; and images that were not at all representative of the Godhead.
It wasn’t long after the church was born that false doctrine was taught, and has led many a ‘ten tribes’ away from truth. Satan indeed has transformed himself into an angel of light.
Enough for now, and may the Lord bless them that love him.
What a nice way to begin Sunday morning by calling our Lord, Jesus Christ, a liar. Matthew 16:18.
There is only one God and God is one.
Three is not one; one is not three.
And there is only one mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus.
God is not a man that he should lie or the son of man that he should repent.
God is spirit and invisible.
Jesus came in (totally in) the flesh and he that denies that is antichrist.
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