Posted on 10/08/2007 7:49:32 AM PDT by colorcountry
Not only is Mormonism a Christian faith, it is the truest form of Christianity, said speaker after speaker on the first day of the 177th Semiannual LDS General Conference. LDS authorities were responding to the allegation that Mormonism isn't part of Christianity. Made by different mainline Protestant and Catholic churches and repeated constantly during coverage of Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, the claim is based on Mormonism's beliefs about God, its rejection of ancient ideas about the Trinity still widely accepted, and the LDS Church's extra-biblical scriptures. "It is not our purpose to demean any person's belief nor the doctrine of any religion," said Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland in the afternoon session. "But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first [Christians], many of whom were eye-witnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?"
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The day's sermons included many familiar themes, including the importance of faith, the need for pure thoughts and actions, avoiding pornography reaching out to neighbors and eliminating spiritual procrastination. Hinckley talked about the destructive nature of anger in marriages, on the road, and in life, urging Mormons to "control your tempers, to put a smile upon your faces, which will erase anger; speak with words of love and peace, appreciation and respect."
“Where have I ‘sneered or smeared evidence’?”
I wasn’t referring to you, you’ve been great and I really appreciate that.
“How is it that when I talk of a priesthood of all believers after Christ, you bring up evidence from the periods before Christ (see your post 622 where you speak of Nachon)? Either this demonstrates gross misunderstanding on your part, or a deliberate disregard for truth.”
I cited Nachon as part of making the point that there was no priesthood of believers in the OT. Do you believe there was a priesthood of believers in the OT? If not, we agree on that point. If you do, why was the believer Nachon struck dead for doing what only a Levite priest was allowed to do?
2. Trinity. Mormonism teaches polytheism (versus monotheism taught in the Bible), believing that the universe is inhabited by many gods who produce spirit children. Joseph Smith declared, "I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370). Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie spoke about the Godhead in this way, "Plurality of Gods: Three separate personages: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577).
3. God. In Mormon theology, the god of our planet is believed to have once been a man on another planet, who through self-effort and the help of his own father-god, was appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth, and now has a physical, resurrected, glorified body. Mormonism teaches that through the atonement of Christ and by their good deeds and "holy" living, men can one day become gods, and with their multiplicity of "goddess wives," populate their own planets. (This is what the celestial marriage and the Mormon temple vows are all about.) Mormon theology, therefore, humanizes God and deifies man.3
4. Christ. Mormonism acknowledges the divinity of Christ, but as noted above, Mormon doctrine on what constitutes divinity falls seriously short of the Biblical standard. Mormonism teaches that Jesus, Lucifer, and all the demons, as well as all mankind, are actually all spirit brothers and sisters, born in the spirit world as spirit babies to our man-god Heavenly Father and his goddess wives. Mormon leaders have consistently taught that God the Father ("Adam-god") had sexual relations on earth with Mary (his own spirit daughter), to produce the physical body of Jesus. Early Mormon apostles also asserted that Christ was a polygamist, and that His wives included Mary and Martha (the sisters of Lazarus) and Mary Magdalene.4
5. Holy Spirit. In Mormonism, a distinction is drawn between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit. As LDS Apostle Marion G. Romney stated: "The Holy Ghost is a person, a spirit, the third member of the Godhead" (Ensign, May 1977, pp. 43-44). The sixth LDS prophet, Joseph F. Smith, explains that the Holy Spirit is not a person but rather an impersonal force: "You may call it the Spirit of God, you may call it the influence of God's intelligence, you may call it the substance of his power; no matter what it is called, it is the spirit of intelligence that permeates the universe" (Mormon Doctrine, McConkie, pp. 752-753).
6. Sin. In Mormon theology, it is not quite clear how the first humans, Adam and Eve, came to live on this earth and received bodies, but somehow they did and began the process of human procreation, whereby bodies are produced for their spirit children. But at the very beginning of the process of human generation, sin entered necessarily. The earthly bodies of Adam and Eve were intended to be immortal tabernacles for their spirits, "but it was necessary for them to possess through mortality and be redeemed through the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ that the fullness of life might come." Therefore, they disobeyed God's commands. Since the fall of man was necessary, it became necessary for men to disobey God in order to do His will. Adam's fall, thereby, was a fall "upward."5 Concerning the transmission of sin to Adam's posterity, Mormons take a negative position -- they believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. Having rejected the doctrine of the imputation of the guilt of sin, Latter-Day Saints likewise repudiate the transmission of inherent corruption or original sin.
7. Salvation. Mormon theology teaches that the atonement of Christ was essential to our salvation and eternal life with God, but that it is not sufficient. Christ's shed blood on the cross provides for universal resurrection of all people, but does not pay for personal sins; according to Mormonism, only Christ's blood shed in the Garden of Gethsemane atones for personal sin. Besides faith in Christ, complete and permanent repentance of all sin as well as many good works are required.6 Mormonism also teaches that one must be baptized in water to be saved (baptismal regeneration), and that salvation will also be available in the next world for those "missing-out" in this one. Therefore, Mormons avidly pursue genealogy and practice baptism for the dead.7
8. Heaven and Hell. Mormonism teaches that there are three degrees of glory: Celestial (for good Mormons able to cease sinning in this lifetime -- see endnote #6 below), Terrestrial (for good people who do not comply with all the teachings of Mormonism), and Telestial (for those who have lived unclean earthly lives). (See also Mormon Doctrines, p. 348.) Mormonism teaches that there is a hell, but only for the "sons of perdition," a very small number of souls that cannot be redeemed. According to Mormonism, then, the vast majority of mankind will be "saved," though it should be obvious that no one will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. [Blacks used to be totally out of the equation: "Black people are black because of their misdeeds in the pre-existence" (Three Degrees of Glory, LDS Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, p. 21); "The Negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin. But that is nothing compared with that greater handicap. He is not permitted to receive the priesthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare men and women to enter into and enjoy a fullness of glory in the Celestial Kingdom" (Elder George E. Richards). In 1978, however, the Mormon Church announced that God had lifted his curse from the African race.]
9. Temple Rituals. A typical temple ceremony would take place as follows: "The ritual began in a small cubicle where we had to strip completely. We then put on 'the shield,' a poncho with a hole for the head, but open on the sides (similar to a hospital gown). We went through a series of 'washings and anointings,' as various parts of our bodies were touched by elderly temple workers who mumbled appropriate incantations over them. Our Mormon underwear, 'the garments,' are said to have powers to protect us from 'the evil one.' It had occult markings, which were so 'sacred' that we were instructed to burn them when the garments wore out. The endowment ceremony mocked all doctrines held to by Biblical Christianity, and Christian pastors were portrayed as servants of Satan. We had to swear many blood oaths, promising we would forfeit our lives if we weren't faithful, or if we revealed any of the secrets revealed to us in the temple ceremonies. We were made to pretend by grotesque gestures to cut our throats, chests, and abdomens, indicating how we would lose our lives. We were never told who would kill us! The inference was, and history testifies to, that it would be the Mormon priesthood." (Testimony of a former Mormon.) [Note: The blood oaths and portrayal of Christian pastors were removed in April of 1990, despite the fact that the ordinance was purported to have been given originally by a revelation and was never to be changed.]
10. More from the Mouths of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
Joseph Smith
"God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me to be God to you in His stead, and the elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it" (Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pp 319-320).
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I" (D.H C., vol. 6, p. 408-409).
"The whole Earth shall bear me witness that I, like the towering rock in the midst of the ocean, which has withstood the mighty surges of the warring waves for centuries, am impregnable ... I combat the errors of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth -- diamond truth; and God is my right hand man." (D.H.C., Vol. 6, p. 78).
"And I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted and there will not be so much as a potsherd left, ..." (D.H C., vol. 5, p. 394). [This prophecy was made in May of 1843, and the United States government has not been overthrown and wasted.]
"Here then is eternal life -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you..." (Teachings of the Prophet, Joseph Smith, p. 346).
"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it" (Ibid., p. 349).
"The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead" [Our God of the Bible has forbidden us to have anything to do with the dead (Deut. 18:10,11).Brigham Young
"I have never yet preached a sertuon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good a scripture" (Journa1 of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95; also see vol. 13, p. 264).
"I say, rather than the apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my Bowie knife, and conquer or die. [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.] Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put on the line ... If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up], let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 83)
"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins ... This is loving our neighbor as ourselves, if he needs help, help him, and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 220). [Many were killed under what is called the "Blood Atonement Doctrine" Leaving Mormonism was one of the sins that the blood of Jesus could not atone for, and a person's own blood must be shed by Mormon priests as an atonement for sin.]
"I intend to meet them on their own grounds. ... and if any miserable scoundrel comes here, cut their throats." [And they obeyed; a wagon train of innocent men, women, and children were massacred at Mountain Meadows under the orders of Brigham Young. They were passing through Utah, and Brigham thought they were from Illinois where Joseph Smith had been killed. Many more were "atoned."]
"Gold and silver grow, and so does every other kind of metal, the same as the hair upon my head or the wheat in the field; ..." (JOD., vol. 1, p. 219).
"Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the Moon? ... So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the Sun. Do you not think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No Question of it; it was not made in vain." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 219).
"Do you think we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principal of polygamy? If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269). [The Edmunds Act was passed in 1882 forbidding polygamy in the territory, and only then was Utah allowed to enter the Union. At that point the LDS church officially gave up polygamy. Another false prophecy from the Mormon prophet!]
"I think these preliminaries will satisfy me, and I feel prepared to take my text. It is the words of Jesus Christ, but where they are in the Bible I cannot tell you now, for I have not taken pains to look at them. I have had so much to do, that I have not read the Bible for many years. I used to read and study it, but did not understand the spirit and meaning of it ..." (1854 Conference discourse, October 8). [Brigham Young obviously did not understand the Bible, and neither do any of the other Mormon prophets!]
* In recent years, Mormon leaders, including the church's modern-day "Prophet," Gordon B. Hinckley, have sought to align the LDS' public teachings and practices with those of politically correct, global ecumenicism. But it is only until recently that Mormons wanted to be called "Christians," preferring not to be included with Christian denominations, which Joseph Smith Jr. said were, "all wrong ... all their creeds were an abomination in His sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19); Mormons have preferred to be called "saints." However, in the recent years, the LDS church has spent millions of dollars in an intense "PR" campaign aimed at moving the Mormon church into the mainstream of Christianity. The political and economic benefits of Mormons being included in the mainstream of Christianity are obvious. Further, for Mormons to be accepted as traditional Christians would greatly aid in proselytizing the members of Christian denominations into the LDS church. This is why the LDS church is trying so hard to present itself as Christian and is trying to overcome the stigma of being a cult (9/16/96, FBIS, "Are Mormons Christians," by Cooper P. Abrams III). Moreover, Mormons let it be known in early-2001 that they no longer wanted to be referred to as "the Mormon Church," "the Latter-day Saints Church," or by "LDS Church." If the name must be shortened, "the Church of Jesus Christ," or "the Church" is acceptable, they said (3/19/01, USN&WR). [Back to Top]
# This report has been excerpted and/or adapted from two sources: (1) "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," Rick Branch (Watchman Fellowship Profile, 1993); and (2) Examining & Exposing Cultic & Occultic Movements, Jack Sin, "What is Wrong with Mormonism," April 2000, pp. 21-25.
1 The Bible lists six identifying marks of false prophets, any one of which is sufficient for identification: (1) through signs and wonders they lead astray after false gods (Dt. 13:1-4); (2) their prophecies don't come to pass (Dt. 18:20-22); (3) they contradict God's Word (Isa. 8:20); (4) they bear bad fruit (Mt. 7:18-20); (5) men speak well of them (Lk. 6:26); and (6) they deny that Jesus, the one and only Christ, has come once and for all in the flesh (1 Jn. 4:3), thereby denying His sufficiency in all matters of life and godliness (2 Pe. 1:3). Most cults are founded upon false prophecies, which, if pointed out, offer an effective way to open blind eyes and rescue cultists. Mormonism boasts of its prophets -- but they have all been false. In the course of 18 years, founding prophet Joseph Smith made 64 specific prophecies. Only six of them were fulfilled -- fewer than 10 percent. Many of his proclamations dealt with the future of his church. For example, in August of 1831 he stated that God had told him, "The faithful among you shall be preserved and rejoice together in the land of Missouri." In September of 1832, he stated that the city of Independence would become the "New Jerusalem ... even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation." Six years later the Mormons were driven out of Independence. No temple was built there. Eventually they were driven from Missouri and settled in Utah. In 1833, Smith prophesied that the United States would suffer unparalleled multiple disasters ("pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake") which would sweep the wicked (non-Mormons) off the land, leaving Mormons safe in their Zion haven in Missouri. Instead, they fled to Utah. Among Smith's many other false prophecies was the declaration in 1835 that Christ would return within 56 years and many living then would "not taste of death till Christ comes" (History of the Church [Vol. 2], p. 182; [Vol. 5], p. 336). Smith's successor, Brigham Young, prophesied that the Civil War would not free the slaves. [Back to Text]
2 The Book of Mormon, purported by Joseph Smith Jr. to be "inspired by God," is the most famous of specifically Mormon "scriptures." Smith concocted the preposterous yarn that an angel named Moroni (pronounced ma-roe-nee) appeared to him in 1827 and told him of some golden plates hidden in a hillside near Palmyra, New York. From these plates, Smith supposedly translated the Book of Mormon. [Published in 1830, this was to become the first of many scriptures for the Mormon Church. By this time, Smith had also officially organized the LDS Church and was gaining a following. Over the next ten years, the church headquarters would move to Kirtland, Ohio; Independence, Missouri, and Far West, Missouri. Finally it would find a resting place in Nauvoo, Illinois.] In actuality, the Book of Mormon is a fraud, having been plagiarized from the Bible, from Shakespeare, from the pope's Essays on Man, from the Westminster Confession of Faith, and from other leading authors of the last few hundred years prior to Smith's death. Despite its plagiarisms, the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible in hundreds of places (9/95, Maranatha Baptist Watchman). [Back to Text]
3 Joseph Smith explained, "I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did" (LDS History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 305). "The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over the world, and the world will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 48). [Back to Text]
4 Brigham Young stated, "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood, was begotten of his Father, as we were of our father" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 115). Mormon Apostle McConkie explained, "And Christ was born into the world as a literal Son this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. He was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events (Mormon Doctrine, p. 742). Jesus, according to Milton Hunter of the LDS First Council of the Seventy, is the brother of Lucifer: "The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind" (The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15). [Back to Text]
5 On June 8, 1873, speaking from the Salt Lake City Tabernacle, Brigham Young said, "The Devil told the truth ... I do not blame Mother Eve. I would not have had her miss eating the forbidden fruit for anything. ..." Another Mormon president declared, "The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise... We can hardly look upon anything resulting in such benefits [i.e., godhood] as a sin." Incredibly, Mormonism is based upon the belief that Satan's central lie is the gospel truth! [Back to Text]
6 See: (1) Book of Mormon: 3 Nephi 27:13-27; Moroni 10:32-33; Mosiah 15:26-27; Alma 12:14-28; 34:32-35; 1 Nephi 3:7; (2) Doctrine & Covenants: 14:7; 58:42-43; and (3) Miracle of Forgiveness (Kimball): pp. 206-210, 313-315, 321-322, 354-355. [Back to Text]
7 Mormons believe that everyone who lives and dies on this earth goes to a place called the Spirit Prison, except faithful Mormons, who go to Paradise. Mormon Spirit Missionaries go down from Paradise to the Spirit Prison and teach the Gospel of Joseph Smith to the lost Christians and others there. Those who accept Mormonism must remain in prison until a worthy Mormon performs certain essential rituals, called "Ordinances," for them in one of the Mormon Temples. Then they are released from Spirit Prison to join the Mormons in Paradise. Since these rituals or Ordinances require a physical body to be washed, anointed, baptized, etc., they can only be performed by a living person in the place and manner prescribed by Deity, acting under Universal (Mormon) cosmic laws.
From: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/mormon.htm
see 676
Do the creeds play any part in your beliefs? You seem very conversant on temporal things, how conversant are you on the spiritual? I rarely, if ever see you talk about the spiritual. Which do you really think is the most important? Is it more important to get close to the Lord spiritually or temporally? Would you rather have a great knowledge of what the Lord has done, or would you rather have a great relationship w/ the Lord? Can you have a great relationship w/ the Lord w/o that spiritual connection?
As far as the John passage, perhaps it has been discussed at length somewhere here but I don’t know where. Can you provide the Link? I personally have asked you & others several times & only received one legitimate response, a Catholic, whom I admire for his forthrightness & willingness to discuss the issue & do so in a very civil manner. Besides, I was really interested in what you had to say about the issue, not others. Perhaps you can provide a link & then just say ditto. You seem to rely a lot on others’ thoughts so that would be fine.
Uh, when LDS relegated him to the dustbin of the universe; before any named entity in any of the LDS scriptures, there was, according to Joseph Smith, eternal matter (you know, like dust substance).
What about the Kobol planet where the Father is supposed to have been mortal?
I didn’t find their belief in a “Heavenly Mother” in there. They have a full blown Goddess but it seems to be on the downlow.
Don’t hold that against poor Joe, when he was fabricating his religion the popular cosmological concept was steady state not big-bang. Of course, the Bible teaches ‘big bang’ not steady state.
Kolob (not Kobol) is the name given to a star that God told Abraham was the star closest to the throne of God. That is all we know of it.
So what do you know about the Queen of Heaven?
Grig, The whole point of the curtain tearing was to symbolize the removal of the barrier between God and men. There was no priesthood of all believers in the OT, as you are very well aware.
Why post it if you are aware of this?
We believe in the existence of a Heavenly Mother, wife of Heavenly Father and mother of our spirits just as the Father is father of our spirits. That is pretty much all we know of it. http://en.fairmormon.org/index.php/Heavenly_Mother
We do not worship or pray to her, in fact some feminist members who started doing so were excommunicated for it.
“Grig, The whole point of the curtain tearing was to symbolize the removal of the barrier between God and men.”
The law of Moses doesn’t bring men into the presence of God, the atonement of Christ does that, but it still doesn’t say that anyone has the priesthood just because they are a believer. You still have the apostles going around ordaining other apostles, elders and bishops etc.
“There was no priesthood of all believers in the OT, as you are very well aware.
Why post it if you are aware of this?”
Because the NT holds out Aaron as an example of how one becomes a holder of the priesthood authority, and so no priesthood of believers in the OT establishes that Aaron didn’t come to have the priesthood by that way, so Paul in holding out Aaron as the example establishes that the priesthood is not conferred by simply believing, but by being called by revelation and ordained by one in authority to do so.
Now by our practice, every worthy male of age is ordained to some office in the priesthood, so it’s presence is very widespread among the membership as many of the verses you cite imply, but even so, it is conferred is by ordination from those already having authority. Nobody and no group can simply assert they have it on the basis of having faith.
So you believe that the Father needs a spiritual female counterpart in order to reproduce spirits?
Reno,
Based on what you have posted here, I am
recommending the volumes.
You dismiss Godly teachers, but the Apostle
Paul specifically names “teacher” as a gift
given to the Church by God for the building
up of the body.
Any answer that comes from the Lord will not
contradict the Bible. Your posts contradict the
scriptures regularly. “That’s what I perceive is
a big difference between you & I.”
I have an advantage over you in this regard -
I am not stuck trying to defend a collection
of teachings from Joseph Smith - which do not
square with the Scriptures. My Bible study
can ask what is there and believe it. You do
not have that freedom or you would be cast
from the hive... though it would be the single
best thing that could ever happen to you.
Being taught by the Holy Spirit taking from
the things of the Lord Jesus and giving to us
is wonderful. So are God’s other provisions
for our growth... including fulfilling
the command to “study to show yourself approved,
a workman who does not need to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the Word of truth.” That,
Reno, is work! And it is a command.
BTW, so you can rest assured and not worry about
my welfare, I have a great relationship with
my Lord. And I worship regularly in a great
church that is a wonderful blessing in my
life and the lives of my family members.
As to a link to your John passage, MHG just
gave you one a couple posts up. Ditto.
As to relying on the thoughts of others, have you
been on these threads so long reno, and yet not
heard my testimony or my focus on understanding
through the study of God’s Word and prayer??? The
difference between us is I don’t stop at prayer.
Nor do I go to the scriptures to find evidence for
what I already believe. Humbling and challenging,
but there is no other way to apprehend truth.
best,
ampu
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
So far, you have quoted extensively (though very selectively... single sentences on the most part) from early believers, and have made repeated reference to your ‘apostles’, councils, and approval of ‘prophetic’ statements by men.
I have referenced Christ and the word of God.
Which of us has put their trust in men, and which in Jesus Christ?
----------------
I have given you scripture in detail, which you seem unable to understand.
If a writer (Peter in this case) is addressing an audience of all who have been given “new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1Pe 1:3), and then continues to address this audience continually as ‘you’, then he is continually talking about all of them.
As you come to him, the living Stone- rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him- you also , like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Pe 2:4-5)
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1Pe 4:9)
It does not say a 'priesthood of all believers', true. It talks of a priesthood made up of all who have been given "new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead". I would call those believers, but if you choose to be silly then we can use the full text.
------------
(Grig wrote) It also clearly lays out that one must be called and ordained as Aaron was and give several examples of church leaders (including Christ) ordaining individuals.
Each believer in Christ is called by God, (”called (by God) to belong to Jesus Christ” (Ro 1:6)), yet you seem to only recognize human ordination.
As to your use of Hebrews 5 to imply ‘ordination’ of priests, perhaps we should post a more complete passage?
Every HIGH PRIEST is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices. (He 5:1)
No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. So CHRIST also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a HIGH PRIEST. But God said to him,
“You are my son, today I have become your Father.” (He 5:4-5)
This is clearly talking about ordination by God of a HIGH PRIEST, not a priest. He then goes on to talk about how Christ fulfills this role. There is no mention of common priests in this at all... to quote you, perhaps I should say that you "read into them what was not there", or "jumped to a conclusion". This type of cheap debating trick to try to discredit others is not how one arrives at truth. Kindly stop trying to sow doubt and confusion by such ungodly methods. Lies and confusion are the tools of Satan, not God.
You make a great show of questioning others' interpretation... yet your own interpretation would ask us to ignore simple rules of grammar, logic, and plain text. Once again I ask you... are you deliberately trying to sow confusion, or are you truly so blind that you cannot see what has been freely given?
Understanding scripture requires the Holy Spirit. If you have hardened your heart so much that you can no longer hear His voice, then there is little use continuing this discussion.
If you hear His voice, yet pretend to not do so, then you had best listen while there is still light.
Are you willing to base your whole beliefs on a man, named Joseph Smith?
Are you saying you believe in a Male God, and a Female God?
You claim my posts regularly contradict the scriptures. Care to elaborate on which ones? You often speak very generally, please be specific.
Is the answer you refer me to above about John really what you want to hang your hat on? I really do feel you have a bright mind albeit I disagree w/ you on most issues, but surely you can do better than that as an answer.
The one thing we do have in common is that we seem to be insatiable students & have a great desire to learn. I too, match those things that I learn w/ the scriptures & find no disparities whatsoever. The Godhead for example, there are many scriptures such as John 17:22-23 that match up very well w/ my beliefs. I study, reason out in my mind, & then take it to the Lord for the final answer. It’s a formula the Lord gave & it works well for me.
BTW, out of curiousity, what church do you belong to?
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