Posted on 10/08/2007 7:49:32 AM PDT by colorcountry
Not only is Mormonism a Christian faith, it is the truest form of Christianity, said speaker after speaker on the first day of the 177th Semiannual LDS General Conference. LDS authorities were responding to the allegation that Mormonism isn't part of Christianity. Made by different mainline Protestant and Catholic churches and repeated constantly during coverage of Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, the claim is based on Mormonism's beliefs about God, its rejection of ancient ideas about the Trinity still widely accepted, and the LDS Church's extra-biblical scriptures. "It is not our purpose to demean any person's belief nor the doctrine of any religion," said Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland in the afternoon session. "But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first [Christians], many of whom were eye-witnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?"
{snip}
The day's sermons included many familiar themes, including the importance of faith, the need for pure thoughts and actions, avoiding pornography reaching out to neighbors and eliminating spiritual procrastination. Hinckley talked about the destructive nature of anger in marriages, on the road, and in life, urging Mormons to "control your tempers, to put a smile upon your faces, which will erase anger; speak with words of love and peace, appreciation and respect."
Perhaps you are not educated enough to understand how rare the LDS church is in the south and how common the Baptists, Methodists and Assembly of God is. They are like a field of clover with the LDS Churches being the very rare four leaf variety. Now do you understand the impact? Or do you just not want to hear it? Is this a personal vendetta with you?
You figure it out.
And you do not do the things you say you will do. What does that make you?
Nice that you can find lds.org. I invite you to study all of the standard works that are posted there.
The point is that you are attacking my Church out of wilful ignorance.
Why do you think that is any of your business?
I suppose NO one even considered what a fertile field it was to sow the "wondrous charitable deeds of the One True Church" either.
Is this a personal vendetta with you?
NOW, when one questions mormonism, it's a "vendetta"?
There ya go again.... ignoring verse 30.
30 “For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.”
Don’t you also think it strange that God would call murder an abomination, and then command the Israelites to do it, slaughter babies, women children etc?
If one believes God is in charge and commands different things given the situation and direction of His will, then one tends to obey His more fully when He commands.
This is why the Israelites in Christ's day could not accept Him. They believed in the dead prophets only, and wanted no further revelation from God.
“Well, considering that you only believe in less than half of the New Testament, you would tend to be rather untrustworthy yourself.”
I’m sorry, I don’t remember us ever having had discussions about the New Testament and what I believe about it. I am more a logician and historian while some of the others here have a better read of the New Testament which I have left to more capable hands. But I guarantee “less than half” is a total fabrication on your part.
Why did Paul write so often to Christian congregations admonishing them to abandon their sinful ways?
Why did Paul have to tell believing Christians that those who committed various sins could not be saved in the kingdom of God?
Why did Paul teach that Christ is “the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe?”
Why did Paul say that “godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation?”
Why did Paul tell the Philippians to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?”
When discussing “the grace of God that bringeth salvation,” why does Paul say that it teaches “that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world?”
Why does the epistle to the Hebrews say that Jesus was “the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him?”
Each of these passages suggests that grace alone is not sufficient for salvation. Consequently, when reading the epistles of Paul, one must keep a much broader picture in mind. For example, Paul told the Romans,
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
From this passage, it is clear that grace alone is insufficient and that it must be coupled with rightousness, faith and confession.
Are you serious? Bwahahaha
Here’s another question fro you. Do you believe that it is possible to fall from Grace after you confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
Before you answer, consider these passages.
Matt. 24: 13 endureth to the end shall be saved.
1 Cor. 9: 27 lest . . . I myself should be a castaway.
1 Cor. 10: 12 let him . . . take heed lest he fall.
Gal. 5: 4 ye are fallen from grace.
1 Tim. 1: 19 some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck.
Heb. 6: 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance.
Heb. 10: 26 sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge . . . no more sacrifice for sins.
Heb. 12: 15 lest any man fail of the grace of God.
2 Pet. 2: 20 again entangled . . . latter end is worse.
Feel free to belly laugh all you want. We are after all entering the Christmas season, so a good hearty “bowl full of jelly” laugh will do us all some good.
old reahash. Been there, done that, got the teeshirt.
No, I haven’t overcome all my appetites. That is a silly bait.
But I will continue to strive to come unto Christ, and be perfected in Him.
“The point is that you are attacking my Church out of wilful ignorance.”
Now that’s a hoot, coming from the guy who absolutely refuses to read Gov. Ford’s account of the effort he went through to stop the lynch mob. Willful ignorance is thy name.
Please clarify, it sounds like you are saying that you can be saved through Christ, but still be judged by Christ and go to hell based on works. How can the two be independent?
Here’s the referencing verses again.
Rev. 20: 12-13
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Do you keep the commandments perfectly? Why not?
Again, mere baiting. No one who has ever lived is perfect, save Christ. Yet, we have been commanded to “Be ye therefore perfect” It’s a process, it’s obedience, it’s the reason we are here to be accountable to God for our knowledge, and what we choose to do with it with the limited time He has given us.
That's just it though, isn't it. The earliest Christian Fathers doctrines were more closely aligned with the LDS beliefs than the later ones that came out of Rome. When you say that we discount church history, yes, we discount the creeds that happened 400 years after Christ. But the ones who lived original Christianity, we praise and acknowledge their contributions to doctrinal accuracy.
Now, this post was a response to the early Fathers views of baptism. What are your thoughts on them? Do you even acknowledge them as early Christian doctrines? How can you explain them away? You didn't reply to them, just accused me.
Here they are again, it's been so long since I posted them.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Justin Martyr, First Apology 61, in ANF 1:183.
"And dipped himself," says [the Scripture], "seven times in Jordan." It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." A fragment attributed to Irenaeus, in ANF 1:574, brackets in original.
"And do not think, though you were more pious than all the pious that ever were, but if you be unbaptized, that you shall ever obtain hope. For all the more, on this account, you shall endure the greater punishment, because you have done excellent works not excellently. For well-doing is excellent when it is done as God has commanded. But if you will not be baptized according to His pleasure, you serve your own will and oppose His counsel. But perhaps some one will say, What does it contribute to piety to be baptized with water? In the first place, because you do that which is pleasing to God; and in the second place, being born again to God of water, by reason of fear you change your first generation, which is of lust, and thus you are able to obtain salvation. But otherwise it is impossible. For thus the prophet has sworn to us, saying, "Verily I say to you, Unless ye be regenerated by living water into the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Clementine Homilies 11:25-26, in ANF 8:289-290.
Nay, he that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever, and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: "Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven." And again: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Apostolic Constitutions 6:15, in ANF 7:456-457.
And to answer your question, the rituals of Jewish "mikvah" are well known. Here is a good article from wikepedia on them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikvah
Just so you know, the LDS believe that baptism was an ordinance of obedience before Christ. John the baptist wasn't the first one to practice it. We believe that baptism has existed as a requirement for God's chosen and obedient peoples since the time of Adam.
Here is a reference to consider. The Lord warns Israel that even after the ritual the "waters of judah", they were still disobedient and foretells their Babylonian captivity.
Isaiah 48: 1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.
So was this place marker with the hidden white text meant to fool us into not looking? A “secret combination” if you will? :-) JK.
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