Mitt's Mission

Newsweek ^ | Oct. 8, 2007 issue | Jonathan Darman and Lisa Miller

[AmericanMade1776]

For Mitt Romney, it all started in a two-story, wood-framed house on a busy street in Pontiac, Mich. Painted beige, encircled by an asphalt lot that would hardly hold a dozen cars, the building manages to look both decrepit and picturesque, like a million other urban churches across the country. Today it houses the Unity Church of Practical Christianity, but until Romney was 10, it was the Mormon church he attended with his family—at least twice a day on Sunday, and one night a week for youth group.

[Spiff]

She wouldn’t have to change in front of other people would she?

No.

[greyfoxx39]

First of all, I'm not the one that made the statement about Romney being hesitant..."“When asked by NEWSWEEK if he has done baptisms for the dead—in which Mormons find the names of dead people of all faiths and baptize them, as an LDS spokesperson says, to “open the door” to the highest heaven—he looked slightly startled and answered, “I have in my life, but I haven’t recently.” The awareness of how odd this will sound to many Americans is what makes Romney hesitant to elaborate on the Mormon question.”...from post 114 by FastCoyote.

My personal belief or disbelief is immaterial to the question....and I think it's disingenuous of you to act "perplexed".

If you don't believe that the LDS Church is true and their proxy baptisms are invalid and a waste of time, then if you're right, nothing happens and the deceased haven't been baptized or anything. No harm, no foul

Here are some who disagree with your "no harm, no foul" offhand dismissal of the subject.

Jews have threatened to sue the LDS church for their practice of necro-baptism of Jews.

Mormons Hijack Dead or Alive Jewish Souls In The Name Of Christ

By Bernard I. Kouchel

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (often referred to as the LDS or Mormons) has spent millions of dollars microfilming, indexing and cataloging nearly every document known to man from every country on earth -- including millions of Jewish records. Church members are encouraged to find the names of ancestors to baptize by proxy, which they believe gives the dead the opportunity to embrace the faith in the afterlife. A hands-on proxy baptism ceremony, called an ordinance, takes place in a Mormon temple, and includes full immersion to wash away sins and commence church membership. It is supposedly performed, commentators say, for people who had believed in Christ, but had not had a chance to be baptized. To be baptized is to publicly acknowledge one's faith in Christ as Savior and Lord. Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously.

From the founding of their religion in 1830, Mormons have respected Judaism as a religion. Thus in 1994, Jews were outraged when it became known that members of LDS were posthumously baptizing Holocaust victims and other Jewish dead. Many followers of Judaism find the practice highly offensive, something akin to the forced baptism of Jews practiced for centuries in Europe during the Middle Ages. Some see the practice as an implicit bias, an act of intolerance. Attempting to contact the dead is forbidden under Jewish law, as one of the 613 basic commandments.

The wrongful baptism of Jewish dead, which disparages the memory of a deceased person is a brazen act which will obscure the historical record for future generations. It has been bitterly opposed by many Jews for a number of years. Others say they will never stop being Jews, simply because there is a paper saying they had been baptized, that the act of posthumous baptism is unimportant and should be ignored. We think this to be a narrow, parochial, and shallow view. We will continue opposing this wrongful act which assimilates our dead to the point where it will not be possible to know who was Jewish in their lifetimes.

-SNIP-

A blogger wrote: "I don't buy the argument that it's done for selfless reasons. It's not selflessness, it's arrogance. And especially in light of the Mormon Church's agreement in 1995 to stop baptizing Holocaust victims, it's even more reprehensible for them to continue the practice. If a church can't be trusted to keep its word in a matter such as this, then where is its moral standing?" We want to say this to all well-meaning Christians: We don't want to be saved, redeemed, forgiven, reincarnated, resurrected, or enraptured. We just want to be left alone. After 2000 years -- is it so much to ask?

How can Jews be committed to enumerating descendants when the Mormons distort our family ties and our historic links to Judaism? You may wish to include this disclaimer in your genealogy records--

I note for posterity that if future researchers find records of baptized relatives in Mormon databases, know that these wrongful baptisms were inflicted on those relatives posthumously - - those entries do not reflect changes in religious choice or practice of our deceased ancestors.

The Issue of The Mormon Baptisms of Jewish Holocaust Victims

What makes you think that members of other Christian faiths will not feel that "The wrongful baptism of their dead, which disparages the memory of a deceased person is a brazen act which will obscure the historical record for future generations."?

You state So, I guess I just don't get it. It seems to me as if it is just something for the bigots and anti's to kvetch endlessly about and/or, as in the specific case of your post, to sow contention, division, and animosity.

Contention, division, animosity? Read the article giving the reception of Jews to mormon baptism of their dead. Do you "get it" now?

[colorcountry]

No kidding (duh).

I was describing an act upon a proxy object that is believed by some, to have a binding effect on the soul of another. In that way, there is much in common with your sect and that of voodoo.

[colorcountry]

yes

[tracer]

I suppose that the percentages are a bit larger when you include the names of all of the dead who have been baptized by proxy.

For decades the Church has microfilmed and otherwise copied millions of vital records around the globe, and the work for the dead, some of whom can be traced back to 1,200 A.D. or even prior to that, goes on.

Church members are charged with tracing their "family trees" back at least four generations, and many have gone much farther back into their family history than that.

The Church is the largest genealogical organization in the world and makes it resources available to individuals, LDS or not, in "family history" libraries located in local meeting houses and, of course, on a grander scale in Salt Lake City and elsewhere around the world. Records can be accessed online, on CDs, and on microfiche.

I invite you to avail yourself of local Church resources and complete your own family history if you haven't done so. You don't have to register, and "no saleman will call."

Thanks for your challenge to me, but, in fact, I do, on a weekly basis, attend our local temple to serve as proxy for various sacred ordinances on behalf of the dead and to serve as a regular temple worker who oversees or performs some of the ordinances.

You may find the topic, as it is explained in the official Church website, lds.org, to be quite interesting. Baptisms for the dead are performed largely by dozens of teen-aged youth serving as proxies, with adult men performing and recording the baptisms and adult women looking after the young women. Several hundred baptisms are performed during a given session.

And check out the website to see how many temples are in operation, are under construction, or are about to be under construction around the world.

Temples operate everyday except Sunday and Monday from eqrly morning to late at night, all opposition and derision notwithstanding......

[tracer]

If the baptisms in question in fact are invalid and have no effect, then it’s no-fault/no-foul, unless someone wishes to whine about non-events done with pure intent and in private....

[Spiff]

"I don't buy the argument that it's done for selfless reasons. It's not selflessness, it's arrogance. And especially in light of the Mormon Church's agreement in 1995 to stop baptizing Holocaust victims, it's even more reprehensible for them to continue the practice. If a church can't be trusted to keep its word in a matter such as this, then where is its moral standing?" We want to say this to all well-meaning Christians: We don't want to be saved, redeemed, forgiven, reincarnated, resurrected, or enraptured. We just want to be left alone. After 2000 years -- is it so much to ask?

This has already been debated ad nauseum on FR. The fact is that if they don't believe that the proxy baptisms are valid, there's really nothing to complain about. But, given their concerns, the LDS Church agreed that the holocaust names would not be used as the sole basis for proxy baptisms. However, those related to the deceased would continue to submit and do proxy baptisms for their dead ancestors. The LDS Church never agreed to force descendents to cease their service to their beloved dead ancestors, despite mistaken statements to the contrary made critics of the practice.

Second, it is selfless service if the actual beliefs of those performing the proxy ordinances are considered and understood. It goes a step beyond praying to God for the eternal souls of dead ancestors, but it is the same sentiment. Should members of other religions be prohibited from praying for the souls of their dead ancestors who were not members of that religion?

[greyfoxx39]

See post 162.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Worse still, they baptized Simon Weisenthal.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Worse still, they baptized Simon Wiesenthal.

[Spiff]

yes

I know what I'm talking about and the answer is No, your mistruths notwithstanding.

[Spiff]

I was describing an act upon a proxy object that is believed by some, to have a binding effect on the soul of another.

Proxy ordinances, such as proxy baptism, are not "binding" upon the souls of the deceased. It is an opportunity for them to receive those ordinances or reject them as they desire, your mischaracterizations notwithstanding.

[Saundra Duffy]

I’m a convert, you know. I used to think Mormons were a bunch of nuts, whack jobs and deceived fools - that was what I was told by many a pastor/evangelist and we were taught not to question the “anointed” ones over us.

One day I found out that Mormons believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins. I always thought Joseph Smith thought he was Jesus or something. I was somewhat PO’d when I realized I had been lied to.

Now, about baptizing for the dead. I was baptized in proxy for deceased women and I felt the Holy Ghost soooo strong. No one can take this Church from my heart.

Thanks for your great posts, FReeper pal.

[Spiff]

I’m a convert, you know. I used to think Mormons were a bunch of nuts, whack jobs and deceived fools - that was what I was told by many a pastor/evangelist and we were taught not to question the “anointed” ones over us.

Both my best friend and also my girl friend in High School were not members. Where I lived, it was rare to find members of the LDS Church. One was Lutheran and the other Nazarene. Both reported that their pastors set aside 1 to 3 Sundays per year to preach about the "evils" of Mormonism. My friends would then come and ask me about what they had learned from the respective Pastors. It was absolutely stunning the kinds of lies that their Pastors were feeding them about the LDS Church and its beliefs. I tried to set them straight, but it was hard to contradict their Pastors who they wanted so much to believe knew what they were talking about. I also pointed out that nothing like that happens in the LDS Church. While we may not believe that other faiths are true, we believe they have a portion of the truth and do not denigrate them in our talks and lessons. Given the mistruths about the LDS Church that are spoken from the pulpits of other churches, it is no wonder that there are so many here who actually believe those mistruths and continually perpetuate them here.

Thanks for your great posts, FReeper pal.

Right back at ya, FRiend.

[colorcountry]

You are unwilling to see the similarities. That’s okay spiff. Others will recognize it for what it is.

Why would it matter if someone made a little effigy of your body and twisted it and contorted it while praying to spirits and sticking pins in your eye....I just don’t see why it would bother you.

Why are you getting all irritated over the similarities? Huh?

[greyfoxx39]

The fact is that if they don't believe that the proxy baptisms are valid, there's really nothing to complain about.

And, I suppose you see nothing arrogant about the above statement?

Second, it is selfless service if the actual beliefs of those performing the proxy ordinances are considered and understood. It goes a step beyond praying to God for the eternal souls of dead ancestors, but it is the same sentiment. WHOSE ancestors? The Jews don't want their ancestors included in the mormon rituals. They couldn't be more explicit about the "sentiment".

Is it your position that in that "selfless service" the wishes of the deceased and the deceased's relatives are to be totally ignored with the "actual beliefs of those performing the proxy ordinances" to be considered above all.?

From the article linked in my post 162, "A protest drive initiated by Jewish genealogists escalated it to a nationally publicized issue that was followed by public outcry. American Jewish leaders considered it an insult and a major setback for interfaith relations. They initiated discussions with the Mormon Church that culminated in a voluntary 1995 agreement by the Church to remove the inappropriate names. Activists continue to monitor Mormon baptismal lists, seeking removal of inappropriate entries.

Has the church done anything to uphold its decade-old agreement with the Jewish community? The bad news is that the Mormons did (and still do) hijack Jewish genocide victims and other Jewish dead. Moreover, when a Jew is baptized, the door is open for all of his deceased ancestors to be baptized as well. Regrettably, their baptismal records place before the public a revisionist view that these deceased Jews were Mormons, a position they would have rejected in life.

Have the General Authorities in Salt Lake explained to the Jewish community that "it is selfless service if the actual beliefs of those performing the proxy ordinances are considered and understood. It goes a step beyond praying to God for the eternal souls of dead ancestors, but it is the same sentiment.

Should members of other religions be prohibited from praying for the souls of their dead ancestors who were not members of that religion????? This statement makes no sense whatever to me.

Did you have to twist yourself into a pretzel to come up with these theories?

[tantiboh]

I thought I answered this? When we use the BoM, our detractors reject it. So what sense does it make to speak much about the Savior’s visit to the American continent?

I answered your questions. Going into attack mode, PYW, isn’t very helpful to your case.

“For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.”

Moroni 7:16

[JRochelle]

So what sense does it make to speak much about the Savior’s visit to the American continent?

---

It doesn’t make any sense since it never happened.

[Missey_Lucy_Goosey]

Very interesting. Thanks for the invite to this thread.